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Post by Dubdrifter on Aug 30, 2023 9:39:12 GMT
In mid-January 2018 …over 5 years ago … I started a debate on: forums.macrumors.com/threads/possible-further-evidence-of-surface-water-erosion-on-moon.2103918/After a long lively 10 month argument on MacRumours Forum, which attracted a bit of interest … and included noted comments from a senior manager at JPL and a Hawaiian volcanologist - amongst others - maybe it’s time to reawaken the debate over the origin of Lunar Rilles? … so that current bids to Colonise the Moon consider other options than the Poles for the location of Lunar Bases. Some ill-informed scientists not aware of the results of the first Indian lunar probe … popped up and lectured me I shouldn’t consider there was ever water on the Moon … and secondly, never in sufficient quantities to ever cause significant erosion. I acknowledge Schroter’s Valley is a huge erosion project … but other rilles are definitely possible over billions of years! The scientific consensus is that the Moon never had an atmosphere and the 14-day/night temp variations prevented weather erosion mechanisms. However, meteor rupture to release several billion years worth of volcanic spring water condensate ooze from the base of the festering Aristarchus Crater and create the eye of Schroter’s Gorge … hmmm … worth considering, eh?? …., I manage to make some good points along the way as my debating skills improved … and I think I got some acknowledgements towards the end that there was likely a choking atmosphere similar to Earth’s early efforts smothering the Moon billions of years ago. … Maybe more concessions will be made … to the point we now need to find good sites to drill for Lunar water leaking from ruptured lava tubes likely still full of Volvic/Evian trapped volcanic water condensates that haven't had the opportunity to escape to the surface and sublimate away into Space. The above debate ran to 8 pages before being strangely shut down by Management (?? … ask them why?) … but there are Links in there worth checking out first b4 engaging here … if they haven’t been broken and destroyed by the Luddite Israeli-passport holders who control, run and ruin the integrity of the precious Internet Archive. |
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Post by Vanna on Aug 30, 2023 11:20:57 GMT
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Post by Dubdrifter on Aug 30, 2023 22:02:00 GMT
Some of these elements are associated with hot springs and volcanism … especially sulphur “ The sulfur smell is associated with geothermal activity. Beneath the surface, as the water heats up due to increasing pressure and proximity to the earth's core, it dissolves minerals including sulfur found in the surrounding soil and rocks. The sulfur binds with oxygen to form the compound sulfate.” …. I’d imagine on the Moon it will likely get the oxygen binder from the steaming process as volcanoes die down and the by-products of rock liquefaction create magnesium salts and other minerals under pressure. I’m wondering if the Moon’s atmosphere was once thick enough … maybe the surface might have had shallow lakes or salty seas in low-lying flat areas smoothed and polished by mild tidal erosion? Mars seems to show signs of varied types of water erosion. Maybe the testing probes of Chandrayaan - 3 might find some forms of life within these water reservoirs at the South Lunar Pole? …. Certainly worth looking for hardy Thermoacidophiles - trapped in the sulphur sample … It will be interesting if there are these archaebacteria found in hot sulphur springs and highly acidic environments - temperature and acid-loving bacteria. |
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Post by Dubdrifter on Aug 30, 2023 22:22:02 GMT
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Post by Dubdrifter on Sept 5, 2023 10:47:04 GMT
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Post by Dubdrifter on Sept 5, 2023 11:33:47 GMT
Even 2 years after the OP debate … scientists are still not getting on the programme … www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/moon-has-more-water-and-ice-hidden-its-surface-originally-predicted-180976146/… that volcanism and the liquefaction of rocks forms water as a bi-product … seen as steam in nearly all eruptions. … and this will be trapped as condensate in water reservoirs wherever there are lava tubes around the base of every volcano eruption on the Moon. Lunar rilles betray the presence of historic water ooze …. often a rupture caused by a meteor impact …. but drill in the right spot around any lunar volcano … and you will likely strike a plentiful supply of WATER. The same Rule applies to Mars too … and any planet or moon in our solar system where volcanic activity has happened. Earth’s water came from volcanism … not ice meteors from the Kyper Belt … that is a load of baloney. If that was the case, why aren’t we still being bombarded with significant volumes of ice?? … Did the Kyper Belt run out?? 😂 |
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Post by Dubdrifter on Sept 13, 2023 11:41:54 GMT
This NASA piece suggests the space agency hasn’t much of a clue how to turn the mission to colonise the Moon into a realistic LONG TERM viable project.
Look at this ‘Mickey Mouse’ drilling operation! … Can anyone see this delivering the quantities of water needed to sustain any sort of residency on the Lunar surface? …
This drill rig will only detect micro moisture seeping through loose lunar volcanic material close to the surface. …not enough to keep one astronaut alive and hydrated for 10 minutes once the sun comes up.
Scooping up frozen ice from lunar craters in a light weight collector to dump into a processor/purifier is a first step project … as long as they land and set up near a crater that has substantial surface ice reserves.
For real lunar exploration in the long term … over the whole surface in future … they need to tap into lava tube condensate water reservoirs present near the base of every extinct volcano eruption on the Moon.
….They will need really long substantial rigs to drill that deep and tap those wells.
… Every lunar rille betrays a site where an ancient meteor hit ruptured such a reservoir that was really close to the surface …. creating water ooze erosion … or substantial sub-surface channel dissolving.
…. try those sites first … but don’t forget to take an efficient purifier.
…. not all well supplies will taste like Evian or Volvic!
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Post by Dubdrifter on Sept 18, 2023 23:32:55 GMT
Here is an interesting excellent video analysing the pits, caves and lava tubes found concentrated in certain areas of the Moon.
This is a major opportunity to site a Moon Base in an area where mineral mining, water and a thick protective natural shelter will protect humans from the worst extremes of the Lunar Day and Night.
Lava tubes and pits present an excellent easy way to navigate well below the lunar surface and learn so much about Lunar eruption history and climate from the sedimentary/stratified layers that are exposed to considerable depth.
I wouldn’t be surprised if some of these pits/tubes have pools or lead to water sources that continually ooze H2O through the substrate … which continuously sublimates into space … shown as a thin atmospheric distortion on many photographs of the lunar horizon.
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Post by Dubdrifter on Oct 23, 2023 4:40:30 GMT
Oh dear … Americans running channels called Veritasium … still struggling to find a grain of truth in their science?
From the Comments:
Totally right this American should be severely upbraided for ignoring the fact it was the newcomers in Lunar exploration … the Indians and Chinese that delivered the science and MAJOR ground-breaking news there is significant hidden reserves of water on the Moon … a fact ignored by NASA for decades …. who today still peddle the myth Lunar and Earth water comes from elsewhere in our Solar System(solar wind?) … yet somehow gets trapped in significant amounts in the ejecta of volcanism?🙄
NASA still dumbly claims ice meteors from various asteroid belts on the fringes of our Solar System delivered Earth it’s water many moons ago … how odd, hardly a mechanism we see happening today? … has this been witnessed at all through the history of Humanity? No record of it? … so what went wrong …. did this ‘water source’ dry up?- or was it a totally daft theory in the first place?
Come on you scientists … why do you keep avoiding the bleeding obvious? …. When rocks are liquified and formed and cool during volcanism … what obvious by-product is produced in those chemical reactions? …. H2O … Loads of it!… oceans of it over time … if you have an atmosphere intact that preserves it … stopping sublimation. There is Evian and Volvic water reserves on our Moon … if we look around the periphery of EVERY dormant extinct volcano - and drill down in the right place near the source end of tell-tale rilles.
Mars once had a retentive atmosphere … rivers, lakes … even seas … thanks to ancient volcanism.
It’s what makes volcanoes steam … and lava flow easily … and is easily trapped in ejecta …. It collects and condenses in pools in underground lava tubes as volcanoes die and fade.
Don’t wait for NASA to get there first … they haven’t a clue what’s going on when it comes to water sources in the Solar System.
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Post by Dubdrifter on Oct 23, 2023 6:55:57 GMT
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Post by Dubdrifter on Nov 18, 2023 23:29:18 GMT
It’s seen in this piece above that scientists are finally(long overdue) starting to abandon the concept of water being delivered to Earth from ice asteroids from the Kyper Belt.
Puzzling why this theory got so much traction over the years when we see so little H2O deliverance today … or recorded in the past - no regular bombardment … where are the impact craters?
Aren’t we more than a few litres short?🤔 … what an utterly daft theory … with no evidence to back it up.
Scientists still haven’t figured out that the water trapped deep underground within diamond deposits is ‘created’ by the volcanism of liquid rock and the pressures present.
I cannot understand what is holding astronomers back joining the dots on this? …. Are they so piss arrogant they never talk to geologists and chemists about the mechanisms present in rock/mineral formation??
NASA science really needs a good kicking right now … it’s so backward in places.
Eg: Mars shows a tremendous amount of water erosion on it’s surface - oceans, rivers and lakes, cut channels litter the surface. Water is still at it’s Poles, and geyser fields pop up in places to betray subsurface volcanism at work. Pock-marking the surface with eruption stains.
Rover vehicles seem uninterested in these areas!
Did NASA scientists deliberately choose the most boring featureless uninteresting parts of Mars on purpose?? Doing Google Mars is a more feature-strewn experience … more exciting.
Maybe next time NASA should talk to a geographer who can study maps and interpret terrain features? …. because looking for life in areas where surface/subsurface water is a ‘rarity’ … ain’t going to deliver … is it?
There’s a reason it’s called desert terrain … it’s deserted. 🙄
Get near the fricking Poles ffs … at least you’ll have some surface water melt pools to explore. Duh!
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Post by Dubdrifter on Jul 8, 2024 14:28:19 GMT
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 8, 2024 16:57:57 GMT
I can't be bothered to read all of this thread, but I thought I heard something about Chinese discovering large quantities of water on the moon. I think I recall it being in the rocks, but never-the-less they came to the conclusion that it would be quite easy to colonise the moon and are in the process of doing so for mining operations.
What you do is get a load of solar cells up there for your energy, then you can split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. You can use that as rocket fuel and you can use the oxygen for breathing. Furthermore you can use the moon dust as a building material. You do this by making a composite where the moon dust is the hardener, and because you can squidge it out of a nozzle you can use robots to 3D print your buildings. If you want food then you can grow stuff because you have energy for light and heat, you have water and then you want some nitrogen and phosphorous and potassium (NPK). I don't know if you can get any of that on the moon, but it sure does cut down the transport weight rather than shipping everything up via rockets.
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Post by Dubdrifter on Jul 10, 2024 6:35:43 GMT
I can't be bothered to read all of this thread, but I thought I heard something about Chinese discovering large quantities of water on the moon. I think I recall it being in the rocks, but never-the-less they came to the conclusion that it would be quite easy to colonise the moon and are in the process of doing so for mining operations. What you do is get a load of solar cells up there for your energy, then you can split the water into hydrogen and oxygen. You can use that as rocket fuel and you can use the oxygen for breathing. Furthermore you can use the moon dust as a building material. You do this by making a composite where the moon dust is the hardener, and because you can squidge it out of a nozzle you can use robots to 3D print your buildings. If you want food then you can grow stuff because you have energy for light and heat, you have water and then you want some nitrogen and phosphorous and potassium (NPK). I don't know if you can get any of that on the moon, but it sure does cut down the transport weight rather than shipping everything up via rockets. Believe me … they won’t need to waste energy and time extracting water from the Moon by such a painfully slow process. See below. If you look carefully at the position of rilles on the Moon’s surface … notice they are ALL close to meteor fractures around the base of dead volcanoes. … They are also visible on every other planet and moon in our System that is beautifully sculptured almost perfectly round(not by accretion theory … but by a planetary birthing process that streams plasma from our Sun - seen actively happening in 2012) …. This creationism creates instant molten cores and volcanism dynamics … and the liquefaction of rock generates a bi-product … millions of gallons of EVIAN and VOLVIC … . Despite excessive sublimation from 2week day/night cycle (which has desiccated our shrinking hollow ringing moon) … reservoirs of underground springs, trapped condensate in lava tubes … from dead volcanism … still exist … ready to be ‘tapped’ on our local Moon … just drill near rille sources … the ‘eye’ end that created a track of subsurface erosion. Rilles are the product of ruptured spring sources over billions/millions of years of erosion … Tap the source and you will get relatively pure water to drink … like we get on Earth. Lunar colonisation should focus near the Poles and the eye of rilles in those regions. Like the sea, rich in magnesium salts … rilles will deliver the salts you need for plant growth. Observe the salt-staining in the eye of Schroter's Valley. |
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Post by Dubdrifter on Sept 12, 2024 3:03:28 GMT
This recent article in New Scientist (August 2024) shows the evidence of different water sources on Mars … www.newscientist.com/article/2443738-we-keep-finding-water-on-mars-here-are-all-the-places-it-might-be/Mars appears to be a planet markedly less desiccated than our Earth moon … which has suffered the extremes of planetary orbital locking making a lunar day and night equivalent to 14 x 24 Earth hours = 336 hours … creating extremely hot long ‘days’ … and extremely cold long ‘nights’ on our tidal-generating body. Depending where you measure … The temperature on the moon can reach a blistering 250° Fahrenheit (120° Celsius or 400 Kelvin) during lunar daytime at the moon's equator, and plummet to -208 degrees F (-130° C, 140 K) at night. In certain spots near the moon's poles temperatures can drop even further, reaching - 424° F (- 253°C or 20 K) according to NASA. …. also … there are SEASONAL temperature variations between ‘Winter’ and ‘Summer’ …. Yes, shockingly … our Moon has seasonal weather! See this interesting research from Aug 2019. agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2019JE006028[It will be good to see scientists finally catching up some day to the idea water exists on every planet and moon in our solar system … that has entertained volcanism. Water being a bi-product of the liquefaction of molten rock.] Maybe Evian and Volvic can sponsor discovery of the first Lunar Colonisation pure filtered underground spring water reservoir source?? … waiting to be found around the base lava tubes of every extinct volcano that burbled on most bodies in our Solar System … Get drilling you Lunies!😋 |
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