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Post by happyjack on Aug 27, 2023 2:18:49 GMT
This is sustained not by the Scottish economy, but by the continuing subsidy from English taxpayers via the Barnett Formula. The Barnett formula, which has determined Scottish Government funding since devolution, works by taking the money spent in England on services and allocating an equivalent percentage (based on population and devolved service provision) to the Scottish Government. By its nature, the formula is therefore not linked to the actual money raised in Scotland, or even the affordability of services from our tax base – it merely gives a lump sum to Holyrood based on the previous year’s spending in England .
. And it’s this system that will eventually lead to the undermining of the Scottish Government’s finances.
Even if the people of England wound up paying substantially more for the same services, or the Scottish tax base took a rapid growth spurt upwards, it wouldn’t matter. The funding for Scotland is based on the money that Westminster and local government spends in England, and only the money they spend.
Wrong again, Thomas! Is there no limit to your what you don’t understand? The Barnett Formula does not do as you describe. It only takes the increase in the amount budgeted for spending in England in a given year on matters which, in Scotland, are devolved, and allocates ScotGov a per capita uplift (or decrease) to its budget from that which it received in the previous year. The Barnett Formula and it’s application therefore differs from what you describe above as follows:- 1. it only governs the increase (or decrease) in budget from one financial year to the next, not the total amount of the budget, this increase (or decrease) being added to (or deducted from) whatever was budgeted for us in the previous financial year. Due to a significant overstatement of Scotland’s population as a proportion of England’s in the calculations for close to 20 years since the Barnett Formula’s inception, and given that which I have just explained, there is a very significant overpayment baked into the amount received by ScotGov each year, and 2. it does not, as you claim “ merely gives a lump sum to Holyrood based on the previous year’s spending in England” but gives an adjustment only to the amount of the lump sum given in the previous year to Holyrood - and is based upon the budget for the forthcoming year for England, not previous year spending in England. Time to brush up on your basics, Thomas - and maybe to keep quiet and to stop embarrassing yourself until you do. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 7:03:42 GMT
Oh dear, thomas, are you still pulling others up for getting things wrong while demonstrating a complete lack of understanding yourself?
Om15 is wrong in the extract that you highlight above, but not for reason that you so mockingly chastise him. Rather, he has significantly understated the scale of Scotland’s notional fiscal deficit as captured in the most recent GERS figures. The deficit was actually £19.1 billion and would have been considerably higher but for the boost that our revenues received in 2022/23 from the windfall tax on oil and gas. Without this temporary boost in revenue our deficit would have been in excess of £25 billion, evidencing the seemingly ever-increasing gap between the standard of living that Scotland enjoys courtesy of us being part of the UK - and the deep austerity conditions that the government of a newly independent Scotland would be obliged to impose upon us if we ever had to live within our means.
GERS does not reflect “how the uk government controls the majority of levers of scotlands economy“ as you claim - it simply shows how much we raise in revenue, how much expenditure we benefit from, and, by deducting one from the other, how big our notional fiscal deficit is.
To reflect your own words back at you ... “Nearly quarter of a century on from devolution, and 31 years on from GERS being set up by the london tory government and im still shocked that people like you dont understand this.”
Poor auld happy jack . Cany even work out how to use the quotation function of this forum never mind explain the intracacies of GERS to om.
Going from his earlier reply to morayloon , om appeared to believe that GERS is some sort of reflection of the snp devolved government rather than a set of " alleged" statistical accounts for scotland as a whole including stuff like defence spending which is reserved to your mummy parliament in england. I was merely trying to help the poor confused guy out.
Glad to see you back though happy . I thought you had flounced off the forum in a huff when asked to prove your last delirious predictions of doom and gloom.
are you still seriously trying to deny the uk government controls the majority of levers for the scottish economy , and that GERS is a fantasy set of accounts based on revenue the uk government takes from scotland , and much of what the uk government spends on scotlands behalf?
You do understand happy that revenue raised in scotland is dependent largely on how the uk government runs our economy.?
What like? The cost of servicing westmisnters collosul debt , funding londons crossrail project or englands HS2 ?
you can scream about deficits all day long , but almost every country on earth runs a deficit. While you waffle on about how badly westminster is running scotlands economy , has it escaped your blinkered attention how badly the uk economy is doing currently and the serious damage brexit has inflicted on the uk as a whole , never mind we scottish who didnt vote for it?
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 7:13:34 GMT
The Barnett formula, which has determined Scottish Government funding since devolution, works by taking the money spent in England on services and allocating an equivalent percentage (based on population and devolved service provision) to the Scottish Government. By its nature, the formula is therefore not linked to the actual money raised in Scotland, or even the affordability of services from our tax base – it merely gives a lump sum to Holyrood based on the previous year’s spending in England .
. And it’s this system that will eventually lead to the undermining of the Scottish Government’s finances.
Even if the people of England wound up paying substantially more for the same services, or the Scottish tax base took a rapid growth spurt upwards, it wouldn’t matter. The funding for Scotland is based on the money that Westminster and local government spends in England, and only the money they spend.
Wrong again, Thomas! Is there no limit to your what you don’t understand? The Barnett Formula does not do as you describe. It only takes the increase in the amount budgeted for spending in England in a given year on matters which, in Scotland, are devolved, and allocates ScotGov a per capita uplift (or decrease) to its budget from that which it received in the previous year. The Barnett Formula and it’s application therefore differs from what you describe above as follows:- 1. it only governs the increase (or decrease) in budget from one financial year to the next, not the total amount of the budget, this increase (or decrease) being added to (or deducted from) whatever was budgeted for us in the previous financial year. Due to a significant overstatement of Scotland’s population as a proportion of England’s in the calculations for close to 20 years since the Barnett Formula’s inception, and given that which I have just explained, there is a very significant overpayment baked into the amount received by ScotGov each year, and 2. it does not, as you claim “ merely gives a lump sum to Holyrood based on the previous year’s spending in England” but gives an adjustment only to the amount of the lump sum given in the previous year to Holyrood - and is based upon the budget for the forthcoming year for England, not previous year spending in England. Time to brush up on your basics, Thomas - and maybe to keep quiet and to stop embarrassing yourself until you do. i appear to understand the barnett formula better than you and ommy. Ommy seems to think the barnett formula is some sort of mechanism which sends english taxpayers cash to scotland. Both you and he dont want to accept scotland spends barely half our own revenue raised , and that as an independent country , we could completely do away with the hated barnett fomula , and be in complete control of our entire revenue rather than a parliament in another country spending on our behalf.
Time you brushed up on your basics happy.
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 7:16:16 GMT
Happyjack, Thomas has a much nicer avatar that you, but your understanding of GERS is a breath of fresh air. Happy doesnt understand GERS red. Happy just likes screaming about fiscal deficits , and how scotland is too wee too poor and too stupid to be independent. You do know happy is a proud european who wants to see you and he back in the EU and european citizens again?
Wait till he starts getting into the conversation , and starts raving deliriously and making predictions he cant prove .
Anyway red , have you seen this......
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Post by sheepy on Aug 27, 2023 7:22:29 GMT
Oh for Christs sake are you serious? 'It's the UK governments fault' really? Moray, the police have been investigating SNP finances for the past couple of years and you're sitting there telling me they account for every penny and cannot overspend! Was Sturgeons confiscated luxury motorhome fully costed? For Yousaf to give away £24 million on a virtue signalling exercise when he is talking about public service cuts and tax hikes to plug a £1bn black hole in public finances is nothing short of utter financial incompetence. You seem to be confusing party and Government. What has happened in the upper echelons of the party has yet to become clear. The fact is that the SNP has overseen 16 years of good financial management. This 'blackhole' is not of ScotGov's making. No ScotGov has overspent during the existence of the Scottish Parliament. Whatever, but what Labour want to know is how you feel about sending 24 million to Africa, as your vote is very important to their latest plan of taking your vote. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 7:30:29 GMT
You seem to be confusing party and Government. What has happened in the upper echelons of the party has yet to become clear. The fact is that the SNP has overseen 16 years of good financial management. This 'blackhole' is not of ScotGov's making. No ScotGov has overspent during the existence of the Scottish Parliament. Whatever, but what Labour want to know is how you feel about sending 24 million to Africa, as your vote is very important to their latest plan of taking your vote. its peanuts sheepy compared to the billions taken from us by the westminster party. As for labour taking scottish votes , lets wait and see what happens. |
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Post by sheepy on Aug 27, 2023 8:08:59 GMT
Whatever, but what Labour want to know is how you feel about sending 24 million to Africa, as your vote is very important to their latest plan of taking your vote. its peanuts sheepy compared to the billions taken from us by the westminster party. As for labour taking scottish votes , lets wait and see what happens. If only you had listened to the Corbyn you would be free as a bird now, allegedly. |
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 9:11:05 GMT
I suppose Scooter thinks that the bigger mess that he creates the better, it will all fall into Anwar's lap so the SNP can borrow as much as possible, blow it on rubbish woke junk and Labour will have to pick up the pieces. . The snp cant borrow as much as possible om. This is once again your ignorance showing.
Morayloon has already explained to you the scottish devovled parliament was originally not allowed to borrow , then under recent scotland acts , the uk parliament has allowed minor borrowing of up to a maximum of a mere £450 million per annum .
The second point is the labour branch manager in scotland is called anus , not anwar.
Talking about leaving a mess for another goverment to pick up is not only highly arrogant in assuming labour is going to win the next scottish election , but also totally mind numbing regading the amount of PFI debt the labour party left scotland to foot the bill for .
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Post by thomas on Aug 27, 2023 9:11:50 GMT
its peanuts sheepy compared to the billions taken from us by the westminster party. As for labour taking scottish votes , lets wait and see what happens. If only you had listened to the Corbyn you would be free as a bird now, allegedly. no one listened to corbyn and his flip flopping over scottish indy sheepy. |
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Post by happyjack on Aug 27, 2023 12:33:35 GMT
Happyjack, Thomas has a much nicer avatar that you, but your understanding of GERS is a breath of fresh air. I am simply telling it as it is without any of the poisonous Indy spin that you see on here from others, Red. I don’t doubt that some relief from breathing in the toxic fumes that they emit ad nauseum is a welcome respite. I appreciate that it might be hard to believe based upon what you see from the Indy extremists on here, aided and abetted by the romanticised contributions of Ex Patria (or whatever it is that she chooses to call herself on here since we moved over from the old site) but these guys are in the minority amongst the Scottish people; both in terms of the YES / NO divide and even amongst those who are in favour of independence, the majority of whom find the twisted narrative of Indy extremism embarrassing. |
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Post by om15 on Aug 27, 2023 20:16:16 GMT
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Post by thomas on Aug 28, 2023 10:36:48 GMT
Happyjack, Thomas has a much nicer avatar that you, but your understanding of GERS is a breath of fresh air. I am simply telling it as it is without any of the poisonous Indy spin that you see on here from others, Red. I don’t doubt that some relief from breathing in the toxic fumes that they emit ad nauseum is a welcome respite. I appreciate that it might be hard to believe based upon what you see from the Indy extremists on here, aided and abetted by the romanticised contributions of Ex Patria (or whatever it is that she chooses to call herself on here since we moved over from the old site) but these guys are in the minority amongst the Scottish people; both in terms of the YES / NO divide and even amongst those who are in favour of independence, the majority of whom find the twisted narrative of Indy extremism embarrassing. 
ive crossed swords with you on this and the old forum numerous times happy , and your continual futile attempts to portray yourself as some timid concerned middle ground scottish citizen is fucking hilarious to every scot on this forum.
I like red , and ommy , and many others on this forum , but you do realise the majority of our english friends on this forum are on the extreme fringes of the uk political ground themselves? Right wing tories , ukip/brexit party supporters , red tories , even one former bnp candidate . You are simply one political extremist appealing to others who hold extreme political views. British nationalists one and all who are quite happy to see scotland crash and burn as long as the butchers apron flys over our land.
There is no indy spin on GERS figures. GERS by common agreement are not a reflection of how an independent scotland would be run. If you have a problem with how the uk government runs scotland and our economy , then take it up with them.
As for poisonous spin , well that really is fucking laughable. In the years ive crossed swords with you happy , i have never heard on single positive comment from you about scotland. All you have is poisonous spin ., fearmongering , and project fear.
As soon as GERS gets mentioned on this forum , up you pop from hibernation to start screaming incoherently about black holes and deficits. Poison drips out of you with every word you post.
The only embarressment to the scottish people are folk like you happy , and your constant put downs of our country. Who is this minority you talk of? Unionists havent won a major election in scotland for 13 years , and the only age group that has major suppport for the union in scotland are the baby boomers.
Yoiur appeals to the extreme right brexiters of english politics , while trying to portray us pro european scottish indy supproters as some extreme minority is a fucking fantasy in your head mate. The whole of europe is sitting watching the bin fire that is the tory run uk at the minute in sympathy with us while you and your brit nat mates scream incoherent rubbish on forums such as this.
You are nothing more than a british nationalist romantic clinging onto the twitching corpse of brittannia on the extreme fringes of scottish politics . Every post you make happy is nothing short of zany comedy barely worth the attention.
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Post by thomas on Aug 28, 2023 10:42:20 GMT
He has a point though om. Support for independence isnt going away , its getting stronger , while support for the snp has obviously fallen. you obviously didnt read my earlier article , so here it is again ommy.
Scottish independence ‘not going away’ according to major analysis
SUPPORT for independence is “not going away” with a majority above 60% for Yes expected by the early 2030s under current trends, a major new analysis has found.
Research by Edinburgh University professor Lindsay Paterson has examined the sociological basis of independence support since 1979.
It found this stability is due to a growth in support among people born since the 1970s, increasing education among these generations and a shift to the left of the independence campaign.
Paterson, professor emeritus of education policy at Edinburgh University, dismissed the notion that Scottish nationalism is comparable to populist movements such as those led by Donald Trump in the US or the Brexit campaign.
He told the Sunday National: “There has been quite a lot of writing, usually from outside Scotland [e.g. England] in the last 10 years or so, which has suggested Scottish nationalism is a bit like Trump or Brexit.
“In other words, it is a rebellion by what is sometimes called the ‘left behind’ against elites.
“That has become a standard explanation of the various populist movements around Europe and North America.”
But he said: “My view from this analysis is that is simply not tenable, that is not the nature now for independence.
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Post by sheepy on Aug 31, 2023 7:09:31 GMT
He has a point though om. Support for independence isnt going away , its getting stronger , while support for the snp has obviously fallen. you obviously didnt read my earlier article , so here it is again ommy.
Scottish independence ‘not going away’ according to major analysis
SUPPORT for independence is “not going away” with a majority above 60% for Yes expected by the early 2030s under current trends, a major new analysis has found.
Research by Edinburgh University professor Lindsay Paterson has examined the sociological basis of independence support since 1979.
It found this stability is due to a growth in support among people born since the 1970s, increasing education among these generations and a shift to the left of the independence campaign.
Paterson, professor emeritus of education policy at Edinburgh University, dismissed the notion that Scottish nationalism is comparable to populist movements such as those led by Donald Trump in the US or the Brexit campaign.
He told the Sunday National: “There has been quite a lot of writing, usually from outside Scotland [e.g. England] in the last 10 years or so, which has suggested Scottish nationalism is a bit like Trump or Brexit.
“In other words, it is a rebellion by what is sometimes called the ‘left behind’ against elites.
“That has become a standard explanation of the various populist movements around Europe and North America.”
But he said: “My view from this analysis is that is simply not tenable, that is not the nature now for independence.
I was reading a story about a lad who moved from Glasgow to Eastbourne, he was going to escape Glasgow's drug culture, anybody who has lived around here for a few years could have told him Eastbourne in twenty years has gone from a very middle class and wealthy retirement area to a crime ridden drug abusing hell hole, I have no idea how they managed that in such a short time but the lad in question found it easier to get drugs there than he did in Glasgow, with Eastbourne's largest crimes being Sexual assault and violence. |
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