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Post by Vinny on Aug 19, 2023 9:12:43 GMT
The question then becomes when has Russia ever posed a threat to the rest of Europe? Invasion of Finland 1939, co-invaded Poland 1939 (committed Katyn Forest Massacre). Invasion and occupation of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania 1940. Invasion and occupation of Bulgaria 1944. Invasion and occupation of Hungary 1944, violent crackdown against Hungarian revolution of 1956. Abkhazia 1992-1993. Chechnya 1994-1996. Invasion and occupation of Chechnya 1999 - present. Invasion of South Ossetia and Abkhazia 2008. Partial invasion of Ukraine 2014. Total invasion of Ukraine 2022. But, since Labour lost power in 2010, our country hasn't invaded and occupied any other. And neither has the USA launched any new invasions and occupations since Bush lost power. Putin is still invading and occupying other countries, he has to be countered or more countries will be attacked. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 9:48:24 GMT
Vinny, vinny - don't you ever check things out before posting?
Bulgaria and Hungary were allies of Germany during WWII, and all the rest - with the arguable exception of Estonia - were historically Russian possessions at one time or another and can be legitimately considered as part of Russia's historical sphere of influence.
Or perhaps you're one of those Atlanticist zealots who don't believe Russia is entitled to such a thing?
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Post by Vinny on Aug 19, 2023 9:53:42 GMT
That's as maybe, but they weren't given back their independence after, were they ?
Think about this Dan.
We gave West Germany back its independence very rapidly.
The Soviet Union did not give East Germany back their independence until 1990.
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 10:04:43 GMT
I'm getting a little weary of responding to your cartoonish version of the sweep of historical events, so I'll stop doing so.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 11:12:16 GMT
Vinny, vinny - don't you ever check things out before posting? Bulgaria and Hungary were allies of Germany during WWII, and all the rest - with the arguable exception of Estonia - were historically Russian possessions at one time or another and can be legitimately considered as part of Russia's historical sphere of influence.
Or perhaps you're one of those Atlanticist zealots who don't believe Russia is entitled to such a thing?Of course Russia is not entitled to such a thing - what a daft suggestion. These are sovereign countries we are discussing and it is for the people of those countries to decide their future not some megalomaniac holed up in the Kremlin. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 11:13:56 GMT
That's as maybe, but they weren't given back their independence after, were they ? Think about this Dan. We gave West Germany back its independence very rapidly. The Soviet Union did not give East Germany back their independence until 1990. Seems Iggy has forgotten that Russia was an ally in WW2 and "on our side" when the peace treaty was signed. It was agreed to split Germany , the loser, for better security that would prevent it from becoming the military power it was. Nothing to do with then future political ideology. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 11:14:20 GMT
Pacifico: Do you believe that no major power is entitled to claim its sphere of influence?
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Post by bancroft on Aug 19, 2023 11:18:31 GMT
The question then becomes when has Russia ever posed a threat to the rest of Europe? Invasion of Finland 1939, co-invaded Poland 1939 (committed Katyn Forest Massacre). Invasion and occupation of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania 1940. Invasion and occupation of Bulgaria 1944. Invasion and occupation of Hungary 1944, violent crackdown against Hungarian revolution of 1956. Abkhazia 1992-1993. Chechnya 1994-1996. Invasion and occupation of Chechnya 1999 - present. Invasion of South Ossetia and Abkhazia 2008. Partial invasion of Ukraine 2014. Total invasion of Ukraine 2022. But, since Labour lost power in 2010, our country hasn't invaded and occupied any other. And neither has the USA launched any new invasions and occupations since Bush lost power. Putin is still invading and occupying other countries, he has to be countered or more countries will be attacked. Cameron wanted us to put troops into Syria, too many letters came in against it which effed up the US as they did not want to go in alone so the Merc armies were created with like minded friends. Would probably have worked yet Russia wanted to protect one of it's client states. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 11:30:11 GMT
Pacifico : Do you believe that no major power is entitled to claim its sphere of influence? This is the 21st Century - not the 17th. Are you really suggesting that the UK should have spheres of influence and determine what happens in half of France - after all at one point it was part of England. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 12:24:20 GMT
No I don't think the UK is a significant enough player to merit or even require a sphere of influence, at least not any longer.
But other players are, including Russia.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 16:28:05 GMT
No I don't think the UK is a significant enough player to merit or even require a sphere of influence, at least not any longer. But other players are, including Russia. So some specific countries are allowed spheres of influence that can override the wishes of the inhabitants of other sovereign countries - do you really believe such outdated notions are in any way acceptable in the modern age?. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 16:41:14 GMT
Once you have international associations such as NATO, the UN, the Red Cross or any large business with smaller subsidiaries, it happens all the time.
The word goes to the richest or most powerful player whether it is a small effort or global politics.
It happened even in FIFA when Sepp Blatter, friend of influential people and rich enough to buy off others, was finally brought down.
Otherwise there is no purpose to getting rich and/or powerful
It is called reality.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 17:14:54 GMT
Once you have international associations such as NATO, the UN, the Red Cross or any large business with smaller subsidiaries, it happens all the time. No country is forced to be part of any of those institutions - membership is voluntary. They are certainly not forced into them by foreign nations who dont have their interests in mind. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 17:39:52 GMT
Voluntary or not, they are still part of another powers sphere of influence. The United States' sphere of influence includes most of Latin America as well as its tributary and vassal states that form NATO. China's sphere of influence includes several neighbouring states and, increasingly, client-states in Africa. Russia's includes the territories of the FSU and the former Warsaw Pact, although everybody is in denial about the latter. Even the EU could be said to have its own sphere of influence which includes the Balkans and former Francophone colonies in Africa and elsewhere.
Here, have a read, it's not something I just made up
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 20:21:37 GMT
Once you have international associations such as NATO, the UN, the Red Cross or any large business with smaller subsidiaries, it happens all the time. No country is forced to be part of any of those institutions - membership is voluntary. They are certainly not forced into them by foreign nations who dont have their interests in mind. In one reply you have completely changed your question to which I replied. You asked if it were possible for one country to overcome another. My answer is yes because it happens at all levels of organised as well as the obvious disorganised levels of human interaction. Look. Putin has made is clear he wants the old Russian Empire back as it was before world wars chewed away at the edges. A bit like if someone from Macedonia decided to reclaim the land from Greece to NW India. There are millions of EU citizens who do not now, nor want to live under Putin. So we must protect them with foresight...not a common habit in the UK. Frankly the thought of a Ukrainian child looking for a football in a wood 40 years from now and happens to step on a mine fills me with horror. Would you want that for anyone's grandchild? I would support any plan to unite to protect our values and way of life against the cold hard fist of secret control the Russians project. |
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