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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2023 16:56:23 GMT
Saying that threats to the UK have always originated in the East is ahistorical. Those threats that have directly threatened the British homeland have tended historically to originate in the south and near west. I'm referring to those posed by Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany.
The threat posed by the Soviet Union was relatively recent and comparatively short-lived. It is ridiculous to claim that the UK or any western European country is threatened by Russian 'expansionism' which is non-existent except to those who persist in worrying about Reds under the bed.
More proximate threats in the 21st century arise from demographic shifts in Afro-Asia and, perhaps, competition with China for global resources.
That's what a European Defence Force ought to be focusing on, not a chimerical 'threat from the East i.e. Russia'. Europeans have no quarrel with Russia, we are simply acting as spear-carriers and supernumaries for the United States and its deluded obsession with 'containment' of an enemy that no longer exists and hasn't done for over thirty years.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 17:09:13 GMT
Sorry but you asked about threats to Europe - not the UK.
Those countries in Europe that up until recently were occupied by Russia will certainly not take at face value your suggestion that Russia are no longer a threat - especially given how many countries Russia has attacked in recent years.
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 17:22:28 GMT
Why do you imagine the Russians would want to invade Sweden and Finland? A relatively undefended way into Europe. Since April though it would start WW3. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 17:31:59 GMT
Saying that threats to the UK have always originated in the East is ahistorical. Those threats that have directly threatened the British homeland have tended historically to originate in the south and near west. I'm referring to those posed by Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany. The threat posed by the Soviet Union was relatively recent and comparatively short-lived. It is ridiculous to claim that the UK or any western European country is threatened by Russian 'expansionism' which is non-existent except to those who persist in worrying about Reds under the bed. More proximate threats in the 21st century arise from demographic shifts in Afro-Asia and, perhaps, competition with China for global resources. That's what a European Defence Force ought to be focusing on, not a chimerical 'threat from the East i.e. Russia'. Europeans have no quarrel with Russia, we are simply acting as spear-carriers and supernumaries for the United States and its deluded obsession with 'containment' of an enemy that no longer exists and hasn't done for over thirty years. DD the formation and growth of the EU post WW2 that transformed Europe from fighting within itself to trading with itself, stopped the historical European nationalist aggression in its tracks. Do not make the common mistake of thinking Africa is just another backwards bunch of nations. The coup in Mali last month was between a democratically elected President and Russian puppets. The puppets won. China has been there a long time, not getting involved in internal politics but not doing anything to avoid it either. As migrants will tell you, it is a short boat ride from Africa to Europe. Peace is won through eternal vigilance. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 17:35:40 GMT
Sorry but you asked about threats to Europe - not the UK. Those countries in Europe that up until recently were occupied by Russia will certainly not take at face value your suggestion that Russia are no longer a threat - especially given how many countries Russia has attacked in recent years. Why do you think the UK is special? If migrants can reach it relatively unhindered, so can drones, the destruction of your communications on the ground and in the air, and being an island you can be attacked from the sea in all directions. |
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2023 18:40:47 GMT
Sorry but you asked about threats to Europe - not the UK. Those countries in Europe that up until recently were occupied by Russia will certainly not take at face value your suggestion that Russia are no longer a threat - especially given how many countries Russia has attacked in recent years. And if the countries of the EU want military cooperation, then greater investment in NATO is the best thing they can do. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 20:57:16 GMT
Sorry but you asked about threats to Europe - not the UK. Those countries in Europe that up until recently were occupied by Russia will certainly not take at face value your suggestion that Russia are no longer a threat - especially given how many countries Russia has attacked in recent years. Why do you think the UK is special? If migrants can reach it relatively unhindered, so can drones, the destruction of your communications on the ground and in the air, and being an island you can be attacked from the sea in all directions. Which is why we prioritise NATO. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 22:25:17 GMT
Why do you think the UK is special? If migrants can reach it relatively unhindered, so can drones, the destruction of your communications on the ground and in the air, and being an island you can be attacked from the sea in all directions. Which is why we prioritise NATO. You dont "prioritise NATO". There is nothing else that works collectively to protect EUROPE. NATO works to maintain military and economic dominance of the USA. NATO is dominated by the UNELECTED wishes of the US military and keeps the rest of the memebers subject to the will of the USA. You want sovereignty and independence? Control your own borders? Your money? Leave NATO. Because right now, the UK and EU are jumping to the tune the US wants to play. I doubt the EU mulitary will exist on paper. Countries are not happy to throw their own military control into the EU pot. So far the US has been an honest broker. But any dishonest POTUS or US military power can hold the members to ransome. Note one already tried it...Trump started to use NATO as a political tool and an exercise in power outside his own country. Think outside the box. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 6:43:44 GMT
If France wishes to leave NATO then feel free - after all it will not be the first time. However the chances of you convincing the rest of Europe to follow your lead is zero - nobody is going to leave the protection of NATO for an uncertain future with France.
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 7:26:15 GMT
If France wishes to leave NATO then feel free - after all it will not be the first time. However the chances of you convincing the rest of Europe to follow your lead is zero - nobody is going to leave the protection of NATO for an uncertain future with France. No one has ever suggested such a thing. You too are making up the purpose and vision of any military unified alliance across the EU. NATO is a purely defensive reactive force. This one would not be restrained by that. It could have "marched into" Ukraine without the caveat that Ukraine isnt in NATO. I dont understand why you and far too many Brits cannot grasp the concept of collective agreed alliances working together. You seem mentally bound by your shoreline. You confuse independence with being apart. With not having to work with allies. You only see independence when you are in sole control. The colonial syndrome. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 19, 2023 7:34:11 GMT
What are you talking about - the whole basis of NATO is collective defence.
If that is not an example of a 'collective agreed alliances working together' then what is?
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 7:58:27 GMT
Why do you imagine the Russians would want to invade Sweden and Finland? A relatively undefended way into Europe. Since April though it would start WW3. It's undefended because there's nothing there, almost 2000km from Oslo to the Russian border. It would be like launching an invasion of the US via Alaska. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 19, 2023 8:19:27 GMT
Sorry but you asked about threats to Europe - not the UK. Those countries in Europe that up until recently were occupied by Russia will certainly not take at face value your suggestion that Russia are no longer a threat - especially given how many countries Russia has attacked in recent years. The question then becomes when has Russia ever posed a threat to the rest of Europe?
From the Russian perspective the threat is very much the other way round, with large-scale invasions from the west occuring three times in little more than a century, four times if we count the post-WW1 'interventions'.
As far as Europe is concerned, historical threats have originated from Asiatic sources, the Ottoman Empire particularly, not from Russia.
Regarding the countries of the former Warsaw Pact that were under Soviet supervision post-WWII they have all, or mostly all been considered by Russia as their buffer zone against further invasions from the West. Nothing could be more certain to fuel Russian paranoia about encirclement and invasion than to make them part of NATO and base western i.e. US forces there. The only thing more ill-advised was to float the idea of Ukraine joining the 'club'
It's surprising that so few appreciate this aspect of the background to the current conflict, least of all our so-called political leadership that leaves no stone unturned in its pursuit of approval from its masters in Washington.
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 8:48:20 GMT
A relatively undefended way into Europe. Since April though it would start WW3. It's undefended because there's nothing there, almost 2000km from Oslo to the Russian border. It would be like launching an invasion of the US via Alaska. Why do you find that surprising? With long range drones, misiles and the real war being fought over communications satellites which can be knocked out without ever physically crossing a border, attacking the US via Alaska is perfectly viable. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 19, 2023 8:50:32 GMT
What are you talking about - the whole basis of NATO is collective defence. If that is not an example of a 'collective agreed alliances working together' then what is? The European Union is, and any defense force they agree to. |
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