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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 10:22:42 GMT
Macron wants a European Defence Force - that requires that EU nations increase their defence capability. If they cannot meet their existing NATO requirements they have no chance of being strong enough for an independent EU force. I'd say it very much depends what the role of a European Defence Force is intended to be. If it's a straightforward continuation of the 1940s-era Truman Doctrine whose sole purpose was to encircle the USSR with a 'ring of steel' then I'd agree it would need to look and act very much like NATO does today.
If, however, it was concerned solely with protection of the European homeland then it would need to be a very different beast. As noted earlier, it isn't 1949 anymore.
As we have seen with Ukraine - even if the idea is purely a defensive force than military spending still needs to be massively increased. Otherwise Europe is still sucking on the American tit. |
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 10:26:18 GMT
It might make Iggy less Iggy if he understood the terms and conditions Germany signed when it lost the war. No military presence. No military equipment. The fact that Germany has ANY presence in the European defense indicates the seriousness with which it takes the Russian attack in the Ukraine.At the height of the cold war Germany had a much larger military presence - along with the rest of the western nations it has collected on the peace dividend and run its forces into the ground. If it (and the EU) want a realistic European Defence Force it is going to have to start spending serious money, something they look reluctant to do. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2023 10:51:39 GMT
What do you believe the role of a 'realistic' EDF ought to be?
I've asked the question several times but nobody seems to want to take a stab at it. Why not have a go?
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 11:13:41 GMT
What do you believe the role of a 'realistic' EDF ought to be? I've asked the question several times but nobody seems to want to take a stab at it. Why not have a go? In practical terms the only role that is feasible for European nations is collective defence - any idea that Europe could project power is hilarious. So as the purpose is defending Europe - it's pretty obvious that currently Europe is incapable of that basic feat of arms. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 11:32:07 GMT
Sorry but EDF is Electricity de France.
The one you rely on for your electricity.
Would love to see the much depleted UK forces holding Putin back.
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 11:33:14 GMT
They are doing well enough against arguably the largest military in the world. Really? Are they fighting a war? I see Germany have purchased Israeli defence missiles. Is that what you mean? No. I am discussing the subject, not any old bshit that pops into your head. |
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2023 11:34:29 GMT
It's a laughable suggestion to think that Ursula Von Der Leyen, the woman who so spectacularly fucked up Germany's defence procurement, and the EU's Covid Vaccine procurement, could somehow succeed at building an EU military force capable of supplanting NATO.
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2023 11:51:47 GMT
In practical terms the only role that is feasible for European nations is collective defence - any idea that Europe could project power is hilarious. So as the purpose is defending Europe - it's pretty obvious that currently Europe is incapable of that basic feat of arms. As a matter of fact, the EU member states collectively have the second largest navy and the second largest airforces after the USA so it is not a lack of men and materiel that is their weakness. It's more a question of command and control but that's not an insuperable problem.
But what I am interested in understanding is the nature of the threats that Europe needs to be defending itself against. What are they and where do they originate?
And another question does the UK have a role in the collective defence of Europe?
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 13:30:41 GMT
It's a laughable suggestion to think that Ursula Von Der Leyen, the woman who so spectacularly fucked up Germany's defence procurement, and the EU's Covid Vaccine procurement, could somehow succeed at building an EU military force capable of supplanting NATO. The EU does not want to supplant NATO. That is the kind of baseless nonsense peoole like Iggy make up . The kind of nonsense that people like him believe without ever checking to find the truth. The EU wants to coordinate national forces. |
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Post by oracle75 on Aug 18, 2023 13:37:27 GMT
In practical terms the only role that is feasible for European nations is collective defence - any idea that Europe could project power is hilarious. So as the purpose is defending Europe - it's pretty obvious that currently Europe is incapable of that basic feat of arms. As a matter of fact, the EU member states collectively have the second largest navy and the second largest airforces after the USA so it is not a lack of men and materiel that is their weakness. It's more a question of command and control but that's not an insuperable problem.
But what I am interested in understanding is the nature of the threats that Europe needs to be defending itself against. What are they and where do they originate?
And another question does the UK have a role in the collective defence of Europe?
DD if you look on a map of northern Europe and the Baltic you will find a few borders belonging to some relatively poorly armed countries...Finland, Sweden,etc. Finland used to be part of Soviet Russia and has only been officially in NATO since 4th April of this year. Largely because of the threat of Russian expansion. Does the UK have a role in common defence of Europe? Not according to those who want nothing to do with Europe. Or will it be a case of half in half out when it suits again? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2023 14:31:46 GMT
Why do you imagine the Russians would want to invade Sweden and Finland?
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2023 15:56:06 GMT
Putin has already invaded other countries.
The Soviet Union also did, and Finland, not far from St Petersburg, was invaded in 1939.
The Winter War and the Continuation War resulted in Finland shrinking.
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Post by Dan Dare on Aug 18, 2023 16:06:10 GMT
Ah right. And how many countries have USUK invaded since 1939?
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Post by Vinny on Aug 18, 2023 16:18:04 GMT
Doesn't make anything Putin has done acceptable.
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Post by Pacifico on Aug 18, 2023 16:41:32 GMT
In practical terms the only role that is feasible for European nations is collective defence - any idea that Europe could project power is hilarious. So as the purpose is defending Europe - it's pretty obvious that currently Europe is incapable of that basic feat of arms. As a matter of fact, the EU member states collectively have the second largest navy and the second largest airforces after the USA so it is not a lack of men and materiel that is their weakness. It's more a question of command and control but that's not an insuperable problem.
But what I am interested in understanding is the nature of the threats that Europe needs to be defending itself against. What are they and where do they originate?
And another question does the UK have a role in the collective defence of Europe?
They tend to originate in the East as they always have done - hence the fontline borders being in places like Poland and the baltic countries. I dont think the UK needs to get involved in any European Defence organisation - NATO pretty much covers all our bases. |
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