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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 31, 2023 8:07:28 GMT
Richard Tice (in his "Sunday Sermon") gave a brief historical rundown of the lies and dodgy data that has been used, over the years, to persuade gullible people about CO2 and warming. Here's the clip - the interesting bit starts at 7 minutes 15 seconds and is about 15 minutes long. It's worth listening to - it's all well sourced stuff. link
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 9:10:10 GMT
Richard Tice (in his "Sunday Sermon") gave a brief historical rundown of the lies and dodgy data that has been used, over the years, to persuade gullible people about CO2 and warming. Here's the clip - the interesting bit starts at 7 minutes 15 seconds and is about 15 minutes long. It's worth listening to - it's all well sourced stuff. link I was particularly impressed with the Lancet expose whereby the graph as regards heat and cold deaths drew a false comparative picture. So much for 'the science' painting us pictures we can believe in and it shows how much trust we should place in 'the science'. I would be keen for a warmist to provide some idea why the graphs should have been so manipulated.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 9:34:28 GMT
Yet another man made climate change denial thread. It is remarkable how many people seem prepared to put their wishful thinking political snake oil ahead of basic science.
Once again, let’s look at the facts
1) there is an overwhelming scientific consensus telling us that man made climate change will very shortly have catastrophic consequences for life on the planet
2) there are a handful of mostly unqualified scientists and some almost exclusively very right wing politicians (please let’s not argue about definition of right wing again) who say it’s not real.
So we - the human population of the world have a choice.
We can listen to the right wing politicians. If they are right we avoid a relatively small impact on our living standards but if they are wrong we impose massive reductions in living standards on future generations - many of whom are alive today.
Or we listen to the scientists. If they are wrong we incur unnecessarily a small reduction in living standards. If they are right we avoid or mitigate catastrophic damage.
Essentially the deniers are asking us to take a long odds bet with a large stake and small gains if we win. Doing so would be a really dumb thing to do.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 11:38:51 GMT
Yet another man made climate change denial thread. It is remarkable how many people seem prepared to put their wishful thinking political snake oil ahead of basic science. Once again, let’s look at the facts 1) there is an overwhelming scientific consensus telling us that man made climate change will very shortly have catastrophic consequences for life on the planet 2) there are a handful of mostly unqualified scientists and some almost exclusively very right wing politicians (please let’s not argue about definition of right wing again) who say it’s not real. So we - the human population of the world have a choice. We can listen to the right wing politicians. If they are right we avoid a relatively small impact on our living standards but if they are wrong we impose massive reductions in living standards on future generations - many of whom are alive today. Or we listen to the scientists. If they are wrong we incur unnecessarily a small reduction in living standards. If they are right we avoid or mitigate catastrophic damage. Essentially the deniers are asking us to take a long odds bet with a large stake and small gains if we win. Doing so would be a really dumb thing to do. Several points. Could you quantify 'small reduction'? So far it seems to be mostly much of the population will not be able to fly will have limited access to, and limited use of, cars, will have to be extremely parsimonious with energy use in winter and will probably be directed to 15 minute cities whereby the 'services' within their zone will be no better, and probably worse than current health, social and law and order services. If the 'science is settled and the evidence is clear why the need for false information to be disseminated to the public by way of dodgy stats and misleading graphs? If the evidence for manipulation was not so widespread then there would be no discussion but in general many feel we are being taken for mugs whether one is RW, LW or undecided.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 11:55:52 GMT
Compared to the forecast impact of doing nothing Sandy, small is very small.
The experts say serious impacts are likely, so we are betting a big stake to win a small prize on the event that looks very likely. It would be like staking £100 on a 20-1 horse but agreeing with the bookmaker to only accept a profit of £10 if you win Some right wing politicians want us to take that bet. Do you feel lucky, punk?
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 31, 2023 12:08:22 GMT
Yet another man made climate change denial thread. It is remarkable how many people seem prepared to put their wishful thinking political snake oil ahead of basic science. Once again, let’s look at the facts 1) there is an overwhelming scientific consensus telling us that man made climate change will very shortly have catastrophic consequences for life on the planet 2) there are a handful of mostly unqualified scientists and some almost exclusively very right wing politicians (please let’s not argue about definition of right wing again) who say it’s not real. So we - the human population of the world have a choice. We can listen to the right wing politicians. If they are right we avoid a relatively small impact on our living standards but if they are wrong we impose massive reductions in living standards on future generations - many of whom are alive today. Or we listen to the scientists. If they are wrong we incur unnecessarily a small reduction in living standards. If they are right we avoid or mitigate catastrophic damage. Essentially the deniers are asking us to take a long odds bet with a large stake and small gains if we win. Doing so would be a really dumb thing to do. "Let's look at the facts" - are you having a laugh. Let's take your "fact" number 1. Firstly - as has been pointed out so many times before - it's not about whether there is "climate change". And it's not about whether man is having an effect on climate. It's plainly obvious to most people who know anything about the subject (not you of course) that when the population of the planet has ballooned from about 1 billion to 8 billion between 1850 and now - and 75% of the land surface of the planet has been "repurposed" in that time - it is BOUND to affect the planet. The QUESTION is whether it's "predominantly caused by CO2*. That's what the politicians are claiming. FFS wake up. As for fact number 2 there are more than a handful of scientists who are unconvinced the CO2 theory. In fact I can't think of any scientist who has supported the theory. Do you ever read anything about this subject?. In fact the main body arguing the case (the IPCC) is NOT a scientific organisation. It's a political organisation that always claims that the main problem is CO2 - and if the data doesn't fit (which it doesn't) it changes the data. I'm dead sure we should listen to the scientists. And if you ask them if CO2 is the main driver of warming they will say they do NOT know. And if you know of ANY scientist who says they do know, Let me know who they are. And I know perfectly well you don't know of even one.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 12:13:15 GMT
Virtually all the scientists knowledgable in the subject say that greenhouse gasses emitted by humans are largely responsible for climate change.
They might be wrong but really its only right wing politicians who say as much.
So with the cost of getting it wrong huge compared to the stake of addressing it now and the probability of losing your bet very high, do you feel lucky, punk?
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 12:14:46 GMT
Compared to the forecast impact of doing nothing Sandy, small is very small. The experts say serious impacts are likely, so we are betting a big stake to win a small prize on the event that looks very likely. It would be like staking £100 on a 20-1 horse but agreeing with the bookmaker to only accept a profit of £10 if you win Some right wing politicians want us to take that bet. Do you feel lucky, punk? Well since we are on the analogy of a bookmaker let us consider what he does. He takes bets from punters and he over-rounds his book so that in most cases he always wins irrespective of which horse wins. So as a punter you may win, you probably will lose and overall you will lose. The odds you are contemplating are not those made by any bookmaker they are being made by those who work in the climate change industry (small warning bells should ring at this point). The information they present to the public is to try and elicit action as regards which bet they wish the punters (all of us) to make (more warning bells). This is all neatly packaged into a political agenda which actually never clearly says what the climate change alarmists would have us believe it says and when it does it presents little or no scientific evidence to that end. In other words they are manipulating the evidence upon which you are asked to take the risk you outline. It is like the bookies drugging the favourite so that they make the biggest win. We have heard lately that 'cold spells' have become less frequent in the world. So far there is no evidence presented as to how that has been measured other than someone thinks it is the case. It is upon such data and statements that your 'forecast impact' is being presented. Every climate disaster is stated to be becoming worse or more frequent yet all the scientific data, and even the IPCC, do not conclude this is so. I would not bet on such a rationale.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 12:20:43 GMT
The more you wriggle Sandy, the more facts remain unchanged.
The overwhelming scientific consensus remains that man made global warming (of which greenhouse gases are the primary cause) will cause catastrophic damage to the planet's environment and the planets inhabitants living standards.
Betting against them based on what some politicians hungry for power say would seem a long odds bet.
Then you look at the stakes and the returns. The stake is a relatively low reduction in living standards. The cost if you are wrong is catastrophic.
Its a dumb bet for mankind to take on.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 12:23:31 GMT
Virtually all the scientists knowledgable in the subject say that greenhouse gasses emitted by humans are largely responsible for climate change. They might be wrong but really its only right wing politicians who say as much. So with the cost of getting it wrong huge compared to the stake of addressing it now and the probability of losing your bet very high, do you feel lucky, punk? Not 'virtually all' many would be a better description and most of those who do say are following careers in climate science. Does that make a difference. If a scientist works for an oil company his point of view is suspect. I would think the same applies to those in the pay of the IPCC or receiving research funding to 'mitigate' the climate emergency. It is not only RW politicians who say as such there are thousands of scientists and commentators who are sceptical of 'the science'. We all take chances on the weather and beyond a week it is a bit of a lottery yet climate scientists can forecast years ahead.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 12:26:47 GMT
Weather and climate are two different things Sandy.
However much you wriggle, the bet you are asking us to take is as I stated.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 12:26:56 GMT
The more you wriggle Sandy, the more facts remain unchanged. The overwhelming scientific consensus remains that man made global warming (of which greenhouse gases are the primary cause) will cause catastrophic damage to the planet's environment and the planets inhabitants living standards. Betting against them based on what some politicians hungry for power say would seem a long odds bet. Then you look at the stakes and the returns. The stake is a relatively low reduction in living standards. The cost if you are wrong is catastrophic. Its a dumb bet for mankind to take on. Again we are back to 'relatively low'. Saying goodbye to cars, foreign holidays, warm heating in winter and saying hello to many more taxes is not a 'relatively low' effect for most people and it is most people who will bear the brunt.
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Post by dappy on Jul 31, 2023 12:30:05 GMT
As much as you wriggle, the "costs" of man achieving net zero are tiny compared to the predicted (by the vast majority of qualified scientists) consequences of doing nothing as some right wing politicians would wish us do.
Not sure there is much to add now
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 12:36:02 GMT
Weather and climate are two different things Sandy. However much you wriggle, the bet you are asking us to take is as I stated. Of course they are two different things but they rely on the same data and observations and in that sense they are intrinsically linked. Do you think scientists receiving money from the IPCC and/or working in climate research to mitigate the climate crisis are beyond reproach? I would have thought climategate would have cured you of that one. A scientific consensus is not proof. In 1978 there was a Scottish consensus form all the expert Scottish pundits that Scotland could win the world cup. A consensus means that just more people could be wrong.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 31, 2023 12:37:26 GMT
As much as you wriggle, the "costs" of man achieving net zero are tiny compared to the predicted (by the vast majority of qualified scientists) consequences of doing nothing as some right wing politicians would wish us do. Not sure there is much to add now Of course there is. You have said they 'tiny' but what are they specifically? What is expected of theh British population if we take the bet?
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