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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 10, 2022 13:09:54 GMT
There's enough unskilled Brits who do want to do the unskilled jobs. Where there are skilled jobs that locals cannot fill because it literally requires years of studies (and at least half of the British people are not academically gifted), that's what economic immigration should be for. Our education system needs to diversify and offer more vocational options. We need to get Brits doing the manual labouring jobs. The idea that Brits don't want to do it, is horseshit, we are the nation who toiled down coal mines. Can you think of a more mind numbing job ? The real reason for the "Brits don't want to do it" lie, is that Brits form trade unions and ask to be properly paid. Greedy bosses wanting people who are quasi slave labourers, that situation has to end. I'm fucking glad to have voted for Brexit and if shit bosses can't get the staff, it's because they're shit bosses, it isn't because people don't want to work. Of course, I remember when MOST university places were to teach people things they needed for jobs, and I don’t mean just doctors dentists and the like, and yes, industry trained those it needed through apprenticeships. Shit money enslaved to the company but better when you got the paperwork. The university expansion Wilson saw as the only way to skill up a workforce for the white heat of technology, which I freely admit I am a beneficiary of because I’ve now paid about four times as much tax, and about fifty times the cost to the state of giving me my degree, than I would without having collected tbe paperwork back in 79, was corrupted by Blair into a place to hide the unemployable for three years, while at the same time Brown set about destroying their funding. My wife was an admissions admin staff member at the time and watched the departmental budget shrink with every recitation of ‘education, education, education’ |
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Post by Toreador on Nov 10, 2022 13:12:27 GMT
Yes I remember those times as the good old days. I remember when 6ft high fences replaced 3ft high fences where you could chat to the neighbours over the fence and kids could get to know each other from toddler age. When kids walked or ran to school because schools were close at hand, where a teacher could handle a class of 50 pupils in total silence with the occasional piece of chalk flying through the air at anyone who dare whisper......then the mid-sixties arrived. So, do I and times were much tougher back then, I have to say I have never found that to be generally the case other than very short term periods, since the mid-60s this country and much of the world have seen far worse times and it ain't getting any better. |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 10, 2022 15:02:18 GMT
And what's the real problem in society? Well that’s a very good question I think the biggest point is we have no such thing as society. Yes I know who said that but hang on. Can I take you back to my childhood and my early adulthood. I grew up in a street where I knew everyone. Well almost. As kids we played in the streets, as the child of a mother who had a part time job I, and my brother, was looked after between end of school and mum coming home from the office clerical job by a rota of essentially “adopted great aunties” the grandmothers of the kids in the street who took it in turns to look after a group of five or six kids for a few hours. The single parent mum across the road bringing up a kid of my age without a dad because he was killed in highly suspicious circumstances in Nigeria while working there for the oil company got her kid looked after no questions asked. But it wasn’t just kids though. We had a woman struggling to bring up a Down’s syndrome kid now in her late 20s and also suffering other problems who lost her husband in the war, a bloke down the road with one leg courtesy of same conflict. But we were all a community. What shocked me in Bracknell in the eighties was the degree to which nobody ever talked to anyone. The street parties that were held for the 1969 investiture of the current sovereign as Prince of wales, and the SILVER jubilee celebration in my then girlfriends village (god, the things she and I got up to, thank god there were no choppers with high power cameras and FLIR then) which were the obvious thing to do then, were unthinkable here now. I haven’t spoken to anyone in this street for the whole of the 25 years I’ve been here except for my immediate next door neighbours. There is no community here and no society just strangers fighting to pay the bills Maybe I'm lucky, but I live in a street where everyone knows each other, we often have house parties or go out for a curry as a street. I think the secret is Facebook. Facebook replaced leaning over the garden fence for a chat with posting "has anyone got some spare balsamic vinegar, leading to a chat and ending with sitting in your neighbours lounge with a honey rum in your pyjamas, talking about there hols in Cyprus. I wonder if there is a lost generation, to old for social media, but no longer living in small communities? |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 10, 2022 15:07:45 GMT
Clearly they're not. They do not use violence or threats of violence to achieve their objectives. Except the definition also includes INTIMIDATION of civilians in pursuit of a political goal. And that they certainly DO The fact is they are committing criminal acts (they are in contempt of court) in pursuit of political goals, and it is time they found out the hard way that this is not permitted. And if they starve to death on hunger strike in their prison cells, so be it. Let them starve. And turn the heating off in their cells so they can practice what they preach. Well I felt bloody annoyed, but I certainly did not feel intimidated, did you? |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 10, 2022 15:14:06 GMT
And whati seen 's the real problem in society? Well that’s a very good question I think the biggest point is we have no such thing as society. Yes I know who said that but hang on. Can I take you back to my childhood and my early adulthood. I grew up in a street where I knew everyone. Well almost. As kids we played in the streets, as the child of a mother who had a part time job I, and my brother, was looked after between end of school and mum coming home from the office clerical job by a rota of essentially “adopted great aunties” the grandmothers of the kids in the street who took it in turns to look after a group of five or six kids for a few hours. The single parent mum across the road bringing up a kid of my age without a dad because he was killed in highly suspicious circumstances in Nigeria while working there for the oil company got her kid looked after no questions asked. But it wasn’t just kids though. We had a woman struggling to bring up a Down’s syndrome kid now in her late 20s and also suffering other problems who lost her husband in the war, a bloke down the road with one leg courtesy of same conflict. But we were all a community. What shocked me in Bracknell in the eighties was the degree to which nobody ever talked to anyone. The street parties that were held for the 1969 investiture of the current sovereign as Prince of wales, and the SILVER jubilee celebration in my then girlfriends village (god, the things she and I got up to, thank god there were no choppers with high power cameras and FLIR then) which were the obvious thing to do then, were unthinkable here now. I haven’t spoken to anyone in this street for the whole of the 25 years I’ve been here except for my immediate next door neighbours. There is no community here and no society just strangers fighting to pay the bills John I say thats my exoerience has well i lived in a council estate all my life that had highrise flats. I seem to reremember when there was a real community spirit. That in my experience seemed to come to a end in the 80s |
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Post by zanygame on Nov 10, 2022 15:23:52 GMT
There's enough unskilled Brits who do want to do the unskilled jobs. Where there are skilled jobs that locals cannot fill because it literally requires years of studies (and at least half of the British people are not academically gifted), that's what economic immigration should be for. Our education system needs to diversify and offer more vocational options. We need to get Brits doing the manual labouring jobs. The idea that Brits don't want to do it, is horseshit, we are the nation who toiled down coal mines. Can you think of a more mind numbing job ? The real reason for the "Brits don't want to do it" lie, is that Brits form trade unions and ask to be properly paid. Greedy bosses wanting people who are quasi slave labourers, that situation has to end. I'm fucking glad to have voted for Brexit and if shit bosses can't get the staff, it's because they're shit bosses, it isn't because people don't want to work. There clearly isn't. There is a shortage in just about every unpleasant field of employment, from carers to dentists, regardless of pay offered. I think you are wrong. People did not work down coal mines through some sense of worth or ethic, they worked down them firstly because they had to and later because the work was protected and well paid. But the world has changed and its causing major issues. Todays young do not want to keep up with the Jones's, they don't want a bigger car or a 56" TV, they want more spare time and to enjoy the work they do. This is a major issue we face, for while its fine that they are happy with less hours, less responsibility and less goodies. They still want the level of public service the old higher wages harder jobs used to pay for. The word wage slave is not a new one, if anything its out of date. The reason we can't get nurses and doctors is not low wages, its that no one wants the goodies enough anymore to put up with the long hours and stress. How we adjust to this new reality I don't know. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 16:04:53 GMT
Probably. Because they are in pursuit of power for its own sake and don't care how or where they get the votes from to achieve it. There is no principle the typical Labour centrist won't shed for ministerial office. They are probably concerned about the Tories bouncing back with the support of the racist vote and want to keep some of it onside for themselves. At least that wouldn't surprise me. Remember, unlike you or most others around here, I was actually in the party and saw up close how the typical Blairite centrist types act, think, and behave. I have shared acrimonious meetings with some of them. They have no strong convictions they won't trade for power. The only thing they will never do in pursuit of power is risk upsetting the current establishment. So populist left leaning policies that might undo aspects of the thatcherite order are a definite no no. The establishment would never stand for it. Or a party recognising their ambitions are out of line with what the public want and adjusting. Its strange how the "typical Blairite centrist types" you describe are the ones that bought Labour out of the wilderness and back into power. Have you ever considered that you might be the odd ones out here? Did you ever see the polling figures for many of Labour's 2017 policies? Massive majorities in favour of most of them. Whatever else cost Labor the election it wasn't those. But I know that's an inconvenient fact for most centrists and their supporters. As for Blair and the centrists leading Labour out of the wilderness, the Tories were such an utterly spent and unpopular force by 1997 that almost any Labour leader would have won. It's a pity victory was wasted on another thatcherite establishmentarian. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 10, 2022 16:25:01 GMT
Don't know how you can call new labour a thatcharite establishment.
When the poor standard of living enproofed under new labour.
Has for new labour gaining power because of the public being against the tory Government were a spent force.
New labour won by the biggest majority under any labour Government and spent longer in power then any labour government.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 16:28:42 GMT
There's enough unskilled Brits who do want to do the unskilled jobs. Where there are skilled jobs that locals cannot fill because it literally requires years of studies (and at least half of the British people are not academically gifted), that's what economic immigration should be for. Our education system needs to diversify and offer more vocational options. We need to get Brits doing the manual labouring jobs. The idea that Brits don't want to do it, is horseshit, we are the nation who toiled down coal mines. Can you think of a more mind numbing job ? The real reason for the "Brits don't want to do it" lie, is that Brits form trade unions and ask to be properly paid. Greedy bosses wanting people who are quasi slave labourers, that situation has to end. I'm fucking glad to have voted for Brexit and if shit bosses can't get the staff, it's because they're shit bosses, it isn't because people don't want to work. There clearly isn't. There is a shortage in just about every unpleasant field of employment, from carers to dentists, regardless of pay offered. I think you are wrong. People did not work down coal mines through some sense of worth or ethic, they worked down them firstly because they had to and later because the work was protected and well paid. But the world has changed and its causing major issues. Todays young do not want to keep up with the Jones's, they don't want a bigger car or a 56" TV, they want more spare time and to enjoy the work they do. This is a major issue we face, for while its fine that they are happy with less hours, less responsibility and less goodies. They still want the level of public service the old higher wages harder jobs used to pay for. The word wage slave is not a new one, if anything its out of date. The reason we can't get nurses and doctors is not low wages, its that no one wants the goodies enough anymore to put up with the long hours and stress. How we adjust to this new reality I don't know. You have a point but low pay after 12 years of real terms pay cuts is definitely a factor for nurses as well as the frequent requirement to put in very long shifts, some of it often in the form of unpaid overtime. The starting salary for a nurse is only a few hundred quid a month more than I get as a retail worker. And unlike me, their job requires specialist knowledge acquired through the acquisition of 60 k worth of student debt. This means it costs the nurse a lot in terms of up front learning costs to do the job. Their hours would be a lot less excessive if all nursing vacancies could be filled which itself would make the job less onerous. And those vacancies could be filled if the pay was rewarding enough and if it didn't come with so much debt. Ceasing to rip them off by charging them a fortune to park in their own workplaces would be a help too. As for low skilled fruit picking jobs there remains the reality of crushingly low pay for a job that is demandingly hard work in all weathers. I wouldn't do it unless I had to. But many more local people would be prepared to do it if some of the structural barriers were removed. For example, such jobs can often be well outside any large urban pool of labour. This necessitates effective transportation or temporary on site or near site accommodation. The transport links just aren't there. And on site or near site accommodation has its own inherent problems and barriers. Because the jobs are temporary, permanent addresses need to be maintained elsewhere, increasing overall rental costs. Plus welfare benefits - including in work benefits - will not cover the cost of two addresses even if one of them is temporary for the purposes of work. These systemic structural barriers need to be addressed or else those providing the work need to resolve them, by for example providing their own free or cheap transportation to collect workers from the nearest sizeable town. Better pay and less onerous hours would also help of course. |
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Post by totheleft3 on Nov 10, 2022 16:42:30 GMT
Im not sure such jobs has crop picking are low paid by pice work and many immigrants earn a good wage because they are able to pick more crops than the British. I
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 16:51:18 GMT
Don't know how you can call new labour a thatcharite establishment. It continued thatcherite housing policies in full, no better deal for private tenants, continued encouragement of council stock transfers, even less investment in social housing than the Tories. After 13 years in office, private tenants could still be evicted for no valid reason and landlords could still charge as much as they could get away with. And it continued thatcherite privatisation and deregulation policies which ultimately proved so economically disastrous where the banks are concerned. And it continued with internal markets and all that Jazz in the NHS, allowed the private sector to get away with ripping off the NHS with tory-style PFI deals, and kept giving NHS work to the private healthcare sector. It retained in full the thatcherite anti-union legislation and pursued a very right wing agenda against civil liberties and for detention without trial, so much so that even the Tories were attacking Labour from the left. It introduced a policy thatcherite Tories had always clamoured for, namely introducing tuition fees and later top up fees. All the essential services of gas, water and electricty remained in the hands of private profiteers after 13 years in office. And in foreign policy terms it pursued an unremittingly right wing neoliberal stance, fully onside with a US Republican policy of aggressive regime change, and detention without trial in foreign lands. Some of this was more thatcherite than the thatcherites. Most of us on the genuine left mockingly referred to the New Labour leader as Tory Blur. And it wasn't just us who were saying Blair was more like a Tory. It was constantly said on the doorstep by working class voters who were giving up on Labour. Blair lost millions of votes after 1997, but this was masked by FPTP and the Tories losing votes too. Indeed, even fewer people voted Labour in 2005 and 2010 than in 2019, an uncomfortable fact rarely reported on which you ought to get your head around. For that matter more people voted Labour in 2017 than at any time since 1997, and it was only FPTP and the new found unity of the right behind Brexit resulting in even higher numbers voting Tory that resulted in narrow electoral failure. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 10, 2022 16:53:29 GMT
Im not sure such jobs has crop picking are low paid by pice work and many immigrants earn a good wage because they are able to pick more crops than the British. I A typical centrist attitude denigrating the British working class. And another example as to why your party is struggling to recover the working class vote and has done ever since Blair. If you think you are so good at this fruit picking malarkey, why don't you give it a go? In my younger days I sometimes used to travel to a local farm and do potato picking. It was piecework, paid by the box. I was able to keep up with and do as much as anyone. Curiously, my Britishness did not hold me back, lol |
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Post by johnofgwent on Nov 10, 2022 17:21:54 GMT
Don't know how you can call new labour a thatcharite establishment. I think it’s pretty easy really. For a start Blair went out of his way to bring privatisation to the NHS in a way Thatcher did not dare. But the real comparison is fairly easy. There was a “political compass” website which measured political opinion and dogma on two axes, the traditional socialist v capitalist and another which I guess was best called authoritarian v libertarian. The really interesting thing about the sure was its assessment of various party manifestos against those criteria. And Blair comes out as fundamentally more right wing, and more authoritarian, than thatcher. Game set and match |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 10, 2022 17:24:18 GMT
Im not sure such jobs has crop picking are low paid by pice work and many immigrants earn a good wage because they are able to pick more crops than the British. I What do you mean by the British and would that include the unemployed of the Bangladeshi, Pakistani and middle eastern groups within which the unemployment levels are much higher than the British in general. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 10, 2022 17:27:56 GMT
Im not sure such jobs has crop picking are low paid by pice work and many immigrants earn a good wage because they are able to pick more crops than the British. I A typical centrist attitude denigrating the British working class. And another example as to why your party is struggling to recover the working class vote and has done ever since Blair. If you think you are so good at this fruit picking malarkey, why don't you give it a go? In my younger days I sometimes used to travel to a local farm and do potato picking. It was piecework, paid by the box. I was able to keep up with and do as much as anyone. Curiously, my Britishness did not hold me back, lol Indeed at age 14 did my paper round in the morning then went off to school by eight or tattie picking on a saturday. Perhaps being British was an advantage. |
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