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Post by thomas on Jul 22, 2023 16:56:42 GMT
Apart from the indoctrinated adolescents, the unhinged and those in the public sector Labour doesn't offer very much, however we have to be realistic, 30 years of leftie brainwashing in schools, on the BBC and in the public sector does add up to quite a few people that are delusional enough to think that Labour would be a good idea. ive been away on holiday , but tell me om , if "quite" a few people are delusional to think labour in government would be a good idea , why didnt they sweep the board in the by elections? One win in three?
I believe with the greatest respect here om , that you show your age with your two party thinking. We arent going back to the old two party politics of the twentieth century. If anything politics is splintering and fragmenting into multiple parties across the uk and has been now for at least a decade if not more.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 22, 2023 17:22:03 GMT
Isn't going to happen. 1) It would mean we go into policies like Schengen, the Euro, the CAP, and the CFP and the Common External Tariff. These are things we're not democratically or economically compatible with. 2) It would mean ditching working FTAs for something proven not to work for us. 3) It would cause the pound to be overvalued again and our export industries would die. 4) The youth of today will have experience tomorrow and will not want to go back.
5) The "old gits" of 2016 were the hopeful youths of 1975 who voted to go into the EEC.
Experience is a great teacher.
I voted after 23 years of experience of life in the EU and even more years in the EEC.
It was SHIT.
No going back, ever.
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Post by om15 on Jul 22, 2023 17:23:27 GMT
We'll see, there will be the usual celtic fringe parties picking up votes from their parochial supporters, but in the main it will be Tory v Labour with supporters of both parties unimpressed and staying at home.
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Post by om15 on Jul 22, 2023 17:26:44 GMT
That is exactly what people like Dame Alison Rose want to happen, Labour supporters aren't folk with whippets and racing pigeons anymore, they have laptops and party in the West End, the new Establishment is full of them (he/she/its) .
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Post by thomas on Jul 22, 2023 17:30:00 GMT
We'll see, there will be the usual celtic fringe parties picking up votes from their parochial supporters im specifically saying to you om i am talking uk wide , not just the celtic fringe . so your first comment is you not reading what im saying merely replying to what you think im saying.
We have a uk wide political system currently designed for twentieth century two party politics , that cant cope with the elephants in the room like brexit , scot indy , northern irish unity , net zero etc , trying to contain , and failing , multiple and developing political outlooks across the uk.
Its a question of when , not if , the two party tory labour tennis game for westmisnter shatters.
The world keeps changing om , wether you want to get on the bus or not.
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Post by thomas on Jul 22, 2023 17:34:13 GMT
Labour supporters aren't folk with whippets and racing pigeons anymore, they have laptops and party in the West End, the new Establishment is full of them (he/she/its) . Where were these middle class liberals that are going to sweep labour to power in the three by elections?
Theres oms claims on a political forum , however misguided , and then there is reality such as the recent three by elections , and by any turd polishing imaginable , were a rather large damp squib for sir keir and his quinoa munching sandal wearing middle class hordes.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 22, 2023 17:39:00 GMT
That is exactly what people like Dame Alison Rose want to happen, Labour supporters aren't folk with whippets and racing pigeons anymore, they have laptops and party in the West End, the new Establishment is full of them (he/she/its) . She's away with the fairies. And, for what she's done, she needs sacking. Fascist moo. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2023 19:32:07 GMT
Well, if there is such a large a majority in favour as you suggest, Labour should stand on a manifesto commitment to rejoin the EU at the next GE. What could possibly go wrong...  Outstanding comment and for me this blows away all these polls, if they are so sure it's no brainer. In other words they don't trust these polls either. Keir Starmer will not go down the road of rejoin because the referendum and its result is still reletavely fresh, 7 years ago, and though I am absolutely convinced that we will rejoin one day, I do actually believe in democracy. The Labour leader would be accused of ignoring a legitimate referendum and it would reopen a sore wound which David Cameron inflicted upon this country, because when Cameron first brought up the idea of a referendum, EU membership was not a key issue amongst the electorate. The numbers of Pro EU membership voters is going to steadily grow, they are in the majority already, and when their voices become louder and louder, in 5 to 10 years time, some sensible person will suggest another referendum, 12 to 20 years after the last referendum. One of the main or key arguments will be that it would boost our economy, boost exports, make trading much easier, boost growth and open the way to a huge Single Market, which by then will probably be more than 30 countries. Such a referendum may have more than one option (1) Rejoin the EU (2) Become a member of the Single Market / The European Economic Area such as Norway. Its no use arguing against an eventual second referendum, because its highly likely that it will happen, but not for a few years yet. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 22, 2023 19:50:39 GMT
Outstanding comment and for me this blows away all these polls, if they are so sure it's no brainer. In other words they don't trust these polls either. Keir Starmer will not go down the road of rejoin because the referendum and its result is still reletavely fresh, 7 years ago, and though I am absolutely convinced that we will rejoin one day, I do actually believe in democracy. This is of course utter rubbish sid.
Keir starmer earlier this year gave a speech in northern ireland at queens uni , where he unequivocally said he supported the good friday agreement which allows a part of the uk referendums after 7 years have past on the same question.
So as pacifico states , if thats keirs stance , and a majority support the uk rejoining , then the clear question is why isnt starmer championing another referendum on brexit , not to mention consistency on when referendums can be reheld?
You , and your party do not believe in democracy. Indeed , labour were completely against the uk even being allowed to hold a brexit ref under milliband , not to mention keir starmers attempt to overturn a democratic referendum result.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 22, 2023 20:59:00 GMT
Man argues that he is in favour of democracy whilst at the same time arguing that he is against giving the people a vote... Sid is the bedrock of all humour around here.. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 22, 2023 22:09:41 GMT
Outstanding comment and for me this blows away all these polls, if they are so sure it's no brainer. In other words they don't trust these polls either. Keir Starmer will not go down the road of rejoin because the referendum and its result is still reletavely fresh, 7 years ago, and though I am absolutely convinced that we will rejoin one day, I do actually believe in democracy. The Labour leader would be accused of ignoring a legitimate referendum and it would reopen a sore wound which David Cameron inflicted upon this country, because when Cameron first brought up the idea of a referendum, EU membership was not a key issue amongst the electorate. The numbers of Pro EU membership voters is going to steadily grow, they are in the majority already, and when their voices become louder and louder, in 5 to 10 years time, some sensible person will suggest another referendum, 12 to 20 years after the last referendum. One of the main or key arguments will be that it would boost our economy, boost exports, make trading much easier, boost growth and open the way to a huge Single Market, which by then will probably be more than 30 countries. Such a referendum may have more than one option (1) Rejoin the EU (2) Become a member of the Single Market / The European Economic Area such as Norway. Its no use arguing against an eventual second referendum, because its highly likely that it will happen, but not for a few years yet. Again, that is not a case for membership, just fundamentalist dreaming. What exactly does the EU do, that suits your left wing ideals? And are you aware of how little we actually sold them when we were members, compared to now? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 23, 2023 6:44:23 GMT
Not only does every poll conducted now show a clear majority believe that Brexit was wrong, and a bad idea, but theres also the demographic time bomb ticking away, which in the end is going to gradually increase the numbers of people who believe the UK should be part of Europe. But when will it happen, how far off in the future, and how will it happen ? 75% of under 25s voted REMAIN According to various surveys / polls, that figure has now increased, a survey conducted by YouGov in 2018 found that 87% of under 25s would vote REMAIN. The change taking place is perhaps best summed up in this article from The Independent Demographic changes mean number of Remain supporters grows by 235,000 each year, while number of Leave backers falls by 260,000 (The Independent) www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-leave-eu-remain-vote-support-against-poll-uk-europe-final-say-yougov-second-referendum-peter-kellner-a8541971.htmlThose who voted LEAVE think its a done deal, never to be revisited, but they are so wrong A factor the Independent typically doesn't take into consideration is the amazing fact that young people get old, and as they get older their opinions change. 30 years ago I was a left wing Labour voter. Today I'm a Tory voter. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 23, 2023 8:28:28 GMT
With experience, views change.
And in the EU they've got food banks, inflation, a cost of living crisis and in the Eurozone, member states can do nothing about it.
The EU doesn't work.
They're currently trying to reform it, with a new treaty.
Until they have a new treaty, and we can observe improvement, we should be extremely wary of it.
We've been burned before, after we were conned in 1975 and then taken into a federal project.
The Europhiles lie.
We cannot trust them.
Project fear was bollocks.
Our experience of membership was appalling.
Our experience post membership is of improved exports and free trade agreements. Above inflation rises in exported trade.
Who are the Europhiles trying to kid?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2023 9:00:25 GMT
In some cases, and in some instances, some people do indeed change their views on things, I reckon we all have at some time in our lives.
But the evidence here suggests that its not happening, as we move further away from 2016, the numbers of eligible voters who would vote REMAIN / Rejoin is growing.
The EU is so bad, and so unworkable that of the few nations in Europe who are not already members, most are queuing up to join.
The will of the people will not be ignored forever, its ok for the time been, because the referendum result is still relatively fresh.
Our economy is worse off, even Boris Johnsons government in the end had to admit it, the London School of Economics say we are worse off, as does the IMF and the Institute for Fiscal Studies.
Time is ticking
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Post by om15 on Jul 23, 2023 9:09:21 GMT
Those that are queing up to join ( who are they?) merely wish to get on the gravy train and scrounge handouts, we see this with the SNP, the sole reason for their EU enthusiasm is so they can apply for grants and freebies, both on a personal and national level.
However, EU members of some duration realise how bad it is. Nations such as Poland and Hungary are now so disillusioned that they are moving towards referendums, and we can guess what the results of those may be.
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