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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 19, 2023 12:44:17 GMT
I vaguely remember that prior to 2002, most businesses in border towns accepted the currencies of the other countries across the border. But that was mostly for food and drinks and the occasional market-bought item. Germany sacrificed a lot by giving up the d-mark (and also by absorbing the East), which shows how basically strong that economy was and is... Germans are still paying the Solidaritätszuschlag, a 5.5% income tax surcharge first imposed in 1991 to assist in financing the rebuilding of the DDR and its economy. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 19, 2023 13:00:46 GMT
Germans are still paying the Solidaritätszuschlag, a 5.5% income tax surcharge first imposed in 1991 to assist in financing the rebuilding of the DDR and its economy. Dan, do you how that has been spent and is it delivering change? |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 22, 2023 7:24:28 GMT
Germany sacrificed a lot by giving up the d-mark (and also by absorbing the East), which shows how basically strong that economy was and is... On the contrary Germany has done very well out of the euro. They designed it - it's basically the New Deutschmark. The basic point is that when you share a single currency between many disparate countries there will obviously be winners nd losers. Germany is now trading with a currency that is about 20% undervalued (compared to what it would be if Germany still used the Deutschmark) meaning that it's exports are far cheaper than they should be - and leading to charges of dumping against Germany. Trump famously asked why New York was flooded with VW Golfs - and the reason is that no US car maker can match the quality of the Golf (at the price) because Germany is trading with very low currency. That's why we're flooded with German cars too - and is one of the reasons why we've lost our car industry. On the other hand Greece is trading with a currency that is at least 20% overvalued meaning that its goods are over-priced - tourism for example is far more expensive than it should be. but Greece can't do anything about it. We should remember what happened when that jackass John Major took us into the ERM at a rate that was too high. We went into deep recession. When we left the recovery was almost instantaneous. The problem for the EU is that the ONLY permanent solution to their single currency problem is to impose fiscal union on the Eurozone. But the richer countries like Germany will NEVER agree to this. Any government in Germany that agreed to this would be never get into power again. Germans will never agree to paying for the debts of more profligate countries like Greece. So the poorer Eurozone nations will continue to get poorer and the richer ones will get richer. It's a tension that will eventually cause the Eurozone to disintegrate - and the longer they continue with this failed currency the bigger will the fallout be when it breaks up. At the very least they should stop forcing new countries to join the euro. |
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Post by patman post on Jul 22, 2023 12:39:09 GMT
Germany sacrificed a lot by giving up the d-mark (and also by absorbing the East), which shows how basically strong that economy was and is... The basic point is that when you share a single currency between many disparate countries there will obviously be winners nd losers. Germany is now trading with a currency that is about 20% undervalued (compared to what it would be if Germany still used the Deutschmark) meaning that it's exports are far cheaper than they should be - and leading to charges of dumping against Germany. Trump famously asked why New York was flooded with VW Golfs - and the reason is that no US car maker can match the quality of the Golf (at the price) because Germany is trading with very low currency. That's why we're flooded with German cars too - and is one of the reasons why we've lost our car industry. On the other hand Greece is trading with a currency that is at least 20% overvalued meaning that its goods are over-priced - tourism for example is far more expensive than it should be. but Greece can't do anything about it. We should remember what happened when that jackass John Major took us into the ERM at a rate that was too high. We went into deep recession. When we left the recovery was almost instantaneous. The problem for the EU is that the ONLY permanent solution to their single currency problem is to impose fiscal union on the Eurozone. But the richer countries like Germany will NEVER agree to this. Any government in Germany that agreed to this would be never get into power again. Germans will never agree to paying for the debts of more profligate countries like Greece. So the poorer Eurozone nations will continue to get poorer and the richer ones will get richer. It's a tension that will eventually cause the Eurozone to disintegrate - and the longer they continue with this failed currency the bigger will the fallout be when it breaks up. At the very least they should stop forcing new countries to join the euro. Germany has done well because it has good industrial relations between employees, companies, and the government/state. All of which allow it to benefit from devising and producing high-quality goods that enjoy good world-wide reputations and high demand. The common European currency idea is around a century old, well before the Coal & Steel Community, the EEC and the EU. Originally, both Britain and France opposed German reunification. France — a strong advocate of European monetary union — obtained Germany's agreement to a single currency in return for supporting German reunification... |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 22, 2023 14:56:42 GMT
An undervalued currency doesn't hurt though...  |
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Post by patman post on Jul 22, 2023 18:01:25 GMT
An undervalued currency doesn't hurt though... Goods and services are only worth what buyers are prepared to pay for them. And sellers have to judge whether what what they’re offering is pitched at an appropriate price — it’s their decision. And producing what the market wants gives the vendor he advantage. Britain has a couple of marques the world values — but not all are British owned any longer, and the value of their Britishness appears to be diminishing… |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 23, 2023 6:50:36 GMT
An undervalued currency doesn't hurt though... . And sellers have to judge whether what what they’re offering is pitched at an appropriate price — it’s their decision. And producing what the market wants gives the vendor he advantage. Britain has a couple of marques the world values — but not all are British owned any longer, and the value of their Britishness appears to be diminishing… Of course they are - if your buyers are only willing to pay £100 for your latest widget that is all you will get. But if having a more favourable exchange rate means that it only costs you £80 to make instead of £90 then that is money in the bank. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 23, 2023 7:27:14 GMT
On the contrary Germany has done very well out of the euro. They designed it - it's basically the New Deutschmark. The basic point is that when you share a single currency between many disparate countries there will obviously be winners nd losers. Germany is now trading with a currency that is about 20% undervalued (compared to what it would be if Germany still used the Deutschmark) meaning that it's exports are far cheaper than they should be - and leading to charges of dumping against Germany. Trump famously asked why New York was flooded with VW Golfs - and the reason is that no US car maker can match the quality of the Golf (at the price) because Germany is trading with very low currency. That's why we're flooded with German cars too - and is one of the reasons why we've lost our car industry. On the other hand Greece is trading with a currency that is at least 20% overvalued meaning that its goods are over-priced - tourism for example is far more expensive than it should be. but Greece can't do anything about it. We should remember what happened when that jackass John Major took us into the ERM at a rate that was too high. We went into deep recession. When we left the recovery was almost instantaneous. The problem for the EU is that the ONLY permanent solution to their single currency problem is to impose fiscal union on the Eurozone. But the richer countries like Germany will NEVER agree to this. Any government in Germany that agreed to this would be never get into power again. Germans will never agree to paying for the debts of more profligate countries like Greece. So the poorer Eurozone nations will continue to get poorer and the richer ones will get richer. It's a tension that will eventually cause the Eurozone to disintegrate - and the longer they continue with this failed currency the bigger will the fallout be when it breaks up. At the very least they should stop forcing new countries to join the euro. The common European currency idea is around a century old, well before the Coal & Steel Community, the EEC and the EU. Originally, both Britain and France opposed German reunification. France — a strong advocate of European monetary union — obtained Germany's agreement to a single currency in return for supporting German reunification... There weren't that many Brits driving around in Audis, BMW's and Mercs before Germany adopted the euro though. They were always too expensive. The point is that exporting with a "devalued" currency is easier than if you have an overvalued currency. We crippled our economy when we joined the ERM. And when you have a lot of grossly disparate nations sharing the same currency there will always be winners and losers. That's why the euro doesn't work for the poorer nations - and why it benefits the richer ones. |
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Post by patman post on Jul 23, 2023 11:00:25 GMT
Plenty of VWs alongside other bread and butter cars before the euro. But there weren’t that many Rolls, Bentley, Daimler, either. The growing number of German and other foreign cars on the UK market is because of the demise of British-owned bar industry.
As for poorer countries, Dacia and Skoda are selling well and competing against French, Italian, Japanese, Korean and, now, a growing Chinese presence.
Blaming others for the UK’s own home grown failures is a major problem because it stops cure and innovation…
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Post by thomas on Jul 23, 2023 11:09:19 GMT
The Croats signed a treaty and joining the Euro is a mandatory part of that treaty. It is , but you are only telling a part truth here as ever vinny.
As sweden shows , any country that joins the EU can have a de facto opt out of the Euro despite on paper the requirement to join by simply failing the five steps of joining the euro , the last of which is membership of ERM 2 for a minimum of two years.
The croats by all reports were desperate to join the euro , and worked extremely hard to that effect.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 23, 2023 21:22:19 GMT
Plenty of VWs alongside other bread and butter cars before the euro. But there weren’t that many Rolls, Bentley, Daimler, either. The growing number of German and other foreign cars on the UK market is because of the demise of British-owned bar industry. As for poorer countries, Dacia and Skoda are selling well and competing against French, Italian, Japanese, Korean and, now, a growing Chinese presence. Blaming others for the UK’s own home grown failures is a major problem because it stops cure and innovation… You miss the point. We stopped free trade agreements with complimentary economies and sought free trade with competitor economies. In the EEC and the EU we were locked inside a protectionist customs union, unable to trade tariff free with complimentary economies, our currency was overvalued, and without a level playing field in the EU, i.e. parity in taxes, wages and currency values, our high tax high wage and overvalued currency economy struggled and experienced industrial decline.
We're the country which sparked the world's industrial revolution and we killed our own industries on the alter of the single market.
We caused high unemployment.
EU membership was a self inflicted massive wound.
It did NOT work.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 24, 2023 0:00:35 GMT
Plenty of VWs alongside other bread and butter cars before the euro. But there weren’t that many Rolls, Bentley, Daimler, either. The growing number of German and other foreign cars on the UK market is because of the demise of British-owned bar industry. As for poorer countries, Dacia and Skoda are selling well and competing against French, Italian, Japanese, Korean and, now, a growing Chinese presence. Blaming others for the UK’s own home grown failures is a major problem because it stops cure and innovation… You miss the point. We stopped free trade agreements with complimentary economies and sought free trade with competitor economies. In the EEC and the EU we were locked inside a protectionist customs union, unable to trade tariff free with complimentary economies, our currency was overvalued, and without a level playing field in the EU, i.e. parity in taxes, wages and currency values, our high tax high wage and overvalued currency economy struggled and experienced industrial decline.
We're the country which sparked the world's industrial revolution and we killed our own industries on the alter of the single market.
We caused high unemployment.
EU membership was a self inflicted massive wound.
It did NOT work. Well said, good post. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 24, 2023 0:13:12 GMT
The Croats signed a treaty and joining the Euro is a mandatory part of that treaty. It is , but you are only telling a part truth here as ever vinny.
As sweden shows , any country that joins the EU can have a de facto opt out of the Euro despite on paper the requirement to join by simply failing the five steps of joining the euro , the last of which is membership of ERM 2 for a minimum of two years.
The croats by all reports were desperate to join the euro , and worked extremely hard to that effect.
I'm loathe to get into this, but Tam you know perfectly well that the EU works in the interests of the EU, not nation states because the ultimate aim is a federal states of Europe. The unelected commissioners who have all the power, once appointed, not elected, have to make this declaration... Having been appointed as a member of the European Commission by the European Council, following the vote of consent by the European Parliament, I solemnly undertake: to respect the treaties and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union in the fulfillment of all my duties; to be completely independent in carrying out my responsibilities, in the general interest of the Union; in the performance of my tasks, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other institution, body, office or entity; to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties or the performance of my tasks.In other words, forget your country your loyalty is now to the EU. |
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Post by thomas on Jul 24, 2023 6:14:14 GMT
It is , but you are only telling a part truth here as ever vinny.
As sweden shows , any country that joins the EU can have a de facto opt out of the Euro despite on paper the requirement to join by simply failing the five steps of joining the euro , the last of which is membership of ERM 2 for a minimum of two years.
The croats by all reports were desperate to join the euro , and worked extremely hard to that effect.
I'm loathe to get into this, but Tam you know perfectly well that the EU works in the interests of the EU, not nation states because the ultimate aim is a federal states of Europe. The unelected commissioners who have all the power, once appointed, not elected, have to make this declaration... Having been appointed as a member of the European Commission by the European Council, following the vote of consent by the European Parliament, I solemnly undertake: to respect the treaties and the Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union in the fulfillment of all my duties; to be completely independent in carrying out my responsibilities, in the general interest of the Union; in the performance of my tasks, neither to seek nor to take instructions from any government or from any other institution, body, office or entity; to refrain from any action incompatible with my duties or the performance of my tasks.In other words, forget your country your loyalty is now to the EU. sure red. Whatever the alleged sinister motives of the EU , that another issue. I was simply addressing vinnys part truth about Euro membership , and how his implication countires dont have a choice to join is simply incorrect. They can simply fail to meet the criteria as sweden does. I thought most folk knew this , as its often been addressed now for at least the last decade.
By all means red , argue against the EU , and hold a eurosceptic view. Theres nothing wrong with that , and its a perfectly acceptable position to take. When people like vinny start presenting half truths and false implications , it does not favour for your cause.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 24, 2023 7:25:36 GMT
Plenty of VWs alongside other bread and butter cars before the euro. But there weren’t that many Rolls, Bentley, Daimler, either. The growing number of German and other foreign cars on the UK market is because of the demise of British-owned bar industry. As for poorer countries, Dacia and Skoda are selling well and competing against French, Italian, Japanese, Korean and, now, a growing Chinese presence. Blaming others for the UK’s own home grown failures is a major problem because it stops cure and innovation… Or alternatively the demise of the British car industry is because of the growing number of German and other cars.  BTW Skodas are VWs. When we joined the Common Market most of the cars in Britain were British. You very rarely saw foreign cars. When we joined the Common Market in 1975 we immediately exposed all our industry to open competition in order to get free trade. So more foreign cars were bought, but not many of the prestige brands because they were too expensive. What really propelled the likes of BMW and Mercedes into the mass market was the euro. Suddenly these cars were affordable. The worrying thing for Germany is that it's slipped into recession - even when it has an artificially low exchange rate. Of course there were other factors in the demise of our car industry - as I said. The unions' actions - which were politically motivated as they are today - crippled our car industry. But basically there was never any way that our car industry could compete with German cars - especially when they later also got access to cheap labour in eastern Europe. The EU has destroyed our industry and our politicians, with their net zero obsession, are busy destroying what little is left. |
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BTW Skodas are VWs.