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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 18, 2023 22:40:19 GMT
Knocking on forty years ago, I had a conversation with my dad (a senior police officer at the time) about the new 'fast-track' scheme in the police, which recruited only graduates and then fast-tracked them to inspector in about 5 years, IIRC. I assumed they would be looking for law graduates (I was 16), but dad said the police didn't care what subject the degree was in, it was merely an indication of the candidate's ability to critique, analyse and process information at a level commensurate with a graduate. I would argue that the same is true today in most cases. It shouldn't matter a toss what your degree is 'in'...it's the fact that you have demonstrated the ability to critically analyse information at graduate level that should be the indicator of your potential. Unfortunately, outside of higher education this is poorly understood. It's also further obfuscated by the obsession with employability over all else, as if every degree should stovepipe somebody into a career for which their degree was essential, bespoke preparation. I will be attending my son's graduation on Thursday. He has gained a BSc in 'Psychology in Education', but he has no interest in becoming an educational psychologist. Neither should he be expected or obliged to be one. That is all very well but some degrees are more popular than others though of little use to man nor beast imo. There are people we need the inventors,those that will research and innovate and long term add to the country there are of course the medical people personally certain degrees imo are worthless i.e. central lancs university offered a degree in soap operas are you seriously saying it has similar value to others? How many people are required in photography for instance,tbh I’d charge higher student fees for those of little use and for others not a bean unless of course they decide after graduating taking their skills elsewhere. well i’m going to jump in here on behalf of the artists. Academically, I’m a molecular biologist with several years postgraduate experience investigating the transport of materials across the cell membrane. As Cartertonian explains, one of the most important thing i learned was to critically evaluate, abd critically structure my own experimental research to withstand such. Many of who might be called my ‘peers’ had no such insight and ripping their work apart was all too often all too easy. The mathematics i needed to model my view of the processes involved were unbeknown to me critical to work i would later be involved in and rather well paid for. But the world would be a poorer place without the painter, the sculptor, the designer, the actor, the dancer and even yes the photographer. The issue of course is where those skills are best acquired. A few years ago now the BBC demonstrated the utter stupidity of where the system had gone with the publication on their do called news page of the sob story of the ‘art and media studies graduate’ “forced to dance to a daft punk track as part of his interview for a job filling shelves at Curry’s” This twat, and there is no other way to described him, sat on his arse and did stuff all throughout his time at the ‘Faculty of Art and Business’ at ‘Newport University’ EVERYONE ELSE in his year worked their arses off producing a portfolio of work in some form or other sufficient to impress someone holding a job interview for something. He dat on his arse and did stuff all. How do i know that ? My youngest was in his group. Her chosen subject was photographic art. She’s quite good at image analysis, and picked up quite a bit in optical physics. But a lot of the hidden stuff in her course was actually management of people and business. She’s an EO Grade civil servant now. People with her have gone on to work in film, stage set design, two switched to acting. Six including her offer their services as professional photographers as a side line. In short out of a group of thirty, i KNOW all but one was earning a salary the tax man was able to steal back some of the student loan from within a couple of years. Whether they all still are, who knows, she’s lost touch with all but a handful just as i have lost touch with most in my year group. |
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Post by wapentake on Jul 18, 2023 23:11:04 GMT
That is all very well but some degrees are more popular than others though of little use to man nor beast imo. There are people we need the inventors,those that will research and innovate and long term add to the country there are of course the medical people personally certain degrees imo are worthless i.e. central lancs university offered a degree in soap operas are you seriously saying it has similar value to others? How many people are required in photography for instance,tbh I’d charge higher student fees for those of little use and for others not a bean unless of course they decide after graduating taking their skills elsewhere. well i’m going to jump in here on behalf of the artists. Academically, I’m a molecular biologist with several years postgraduate experience investigating the transport of materials across the cell membrane. As Cartertonian explains, one of the most important thing i learned was to critically evaluate, abd critically structure my own experimental research to withstand such. Many of who might be called my ‘peers’ had no such insight and ripping their work apart was all too often all too easy. The mathematics i needed to model my view of the processes involved were unbeknown to me critical to work i would later be involved in and rather well paid for. But the world would be a poorer place without the painter, the sculptor, the designer, the actor, the dancer and even yes the photographer. The issue of course is where those skills are best acquired. A few years ago now the BBC demonstrated the utter stupidity of where the system had gone with the publication on their do called news page of the sob story of the ‘art and media studies graduate’ “forced to dance to a daft punk track as part of his interview for a job filling shelves at Curry’s” This twat, and there is no other way to described him, sat on his arse and did stuff all throughout his time at the ‘Faculty of Art and Business’ at ‘Newport University’ EVERYONE ELSE in his year worked their arses off producing a portfolio of work in some form or other sufficient to impress someone holding a job interview for something. He dat on his arse and did stuff all. How do i know that ? My youngest was in his group. Her chosen subject was photographic art. She’s quite good at image analysis, and picked up quite a bit in optical physics. But a lot of the hidden stuff in her course was actually management of people and business. She’s an EO Grade civil servant now. People with her have gone on to work in film, stage set design, two switched to acting. Six including her offer their services as professional photographers as a side line. In short out of a group of thirty, i KNOW all but one was earning a salary the tax man was able to steal back some of the student loan from within a couple of years. Whether they all still are, who knows, she’s lost touch with all but a handful just as i have lost touch with most in my year group. Good stuff and pleased for your daughter,have seen personally the photography degree wasn’t all it was cracked up to be. And the degree in soaps? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 19, 2023 6:56:18 GMT
To save quoting a whole load i’ll take that point about the degree in soap drama appreciation separately.
I mentioned on the site the actions of Professor Sir Bernard Knight who went out and asked a polytechnic to sit down with a learned society and hand craft a syllabus of suitable rigour to test those seeking to apply to work with him as a Forensic Scientist. I knew the man through his and my professions and where they overlapped. Dad knew him from his school days.
As i said then about four other academic establishments took up the offer from the Royal Society of Chemistry to accept that course and the accompanying RSC accreditation. Something similar in more recent years has been accredited by the British Computer Society for Computer Forensics.
Against that background many other ‘academic’ bodies abused their charters - that allow them to assemble a syllabus and offer a degree based upon it - to ‘offer’ a course sounding similar but not actually accredited and thus worthless.
Some scorn poured on some courses is possibly undeserved, one particular ‘degree’ ridiculed by the press as being in ‘beach management’ deserves ridicule as a degree for in reality it is more an MBA offered as a specific course with a specific aim for those seeking formal qualification in business skills in the leisure industry which is somewhat more substantial than it may seem.
But yes several of those Forensic Science courses were little more than media studies appreciation and i was not sure whether i was more shocked by the bare faced cheek of the criminals presenting the course as useful, or the stupidity of the mugs taking it for believing the hype and bollox.
It is a sad reflection on our times. I do not myself recall a university at the time I applied whose offered courses in the subjects that attracted my interest were NOT accredited by one or other of the trade, industry or professional bodies. Only a fool would have offered a law degree the Bar would not accept a student of, and my own degree gave immediate membership - for the usual (nominal) fee - as a graduate member of the Biochemical Society, the recognised learned body.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 11:19:02 GMT
To save quoting a whole load i’ll take that point about the degree in soap drama appreciation separately. I mentioned on the site the actions of Professor Sir Bernard Knight who went out and asked a polytechnic to sit down with a learned society and hand craft a syllabus of suitable rigour to test those seeking to apply to work with him as a Forensic Scientist. I knew the man through his and my professions and where they overlapped. Dad knew him from his school days. As i said then about four other academic establishments took up the offer from the Royal Society of Chemistry to accept that course and the accompanying RSC accreditation. Something similar in more recent years has been accredited by the British Computer Society for Computer Forensics. Against that background many other ‘academic’ bodies abused their charters - that allow them to assemble a syllabus and offer a degree based upon it - to ‘offer’ a course sounding similar but not actually accredited and thus worthless. Some scorn poured on some courses is possibly undeserved, one particular ‘degree’ ridiculed by the press as being in ‘beach management’ deserves ridicule as a degree for in reality it is more an MBA offered as a specific course with a specific aim for those seeking formal qualification in business skills in the leisure industry which is somewhat more substantial than it may seem. But yes several of those Forensic Science courses were little more than media studies appreciation and i was not sure whether i was more shocked by the bare faced cheek of the criminals presenting the course as useful, or the stupidity of the mugs taking it for believing the hype and bollox. It is a sad reflection on our times. I do not myself recall a university at the time I applied whose offered courses in the subjects that attracted my interest were NOT accredited by one or other of the trade, industry or professional bodies. Only a fool would have offered a law degree the Bar would not accept a student of, and my own degree gave immediate membership - for the usual (nominal) fee - as a graduate member of the Biochemical Society, the recognised learned body. So-called professional bodies have turned into fuckwits these days. They have invited the woke to run them. They are part of the problem. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 19, 2023 11:45:07 GMT
Knocking on forty years ago, I had a conversation with my dad (a senior police officer at the time) about the new 'fast-track' scheme in the police, which recruited only graduates and then fast-tracked them to inspector in about 5 years, IIRC. I assumed they would be looking for law graduates (I was 16), but dad said the police didn't care what subject the degree was in, it was merely an indication of the candidate's ability to critique, analyse and process information at a level commensurate with a graduate. I would argue that the same is true today in most cases. It shouldn't matter a toss what your degree is 'in'...it's the fact that you have demonstrated the ability to critically analyse information at graduate level that should be the indicator of your potential. Unfortunately, outside of higher education this is poorly understood. It's also further obfuscated by the obsession with employability over all else, as if every degree should stovepipe somebody into a career for which their degree was essential, bespoke preparation. I will be attending my son's graduation on Thursday. He has gained a BSc in 'Psychology in Education', but he has no interest in becoming an educational psychologist. Neither should he be expected or obliged to be one. My elder daughters degree is in psychology, after uni she went into a career in public relations. I suppose you could argue there's a link between psychology and PR, but she says a degree is not necessary to do the job, but it is necessary to get your foot in the door. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 11:53:43 GMT
Knocking on forty years ago, I had a conversation with my dad (a senior police officer at the time) about the new 'fast-track' scheme in the police, which recruited only graduates and then fast-tracked them to inspector in about 5 years, IIRC. I assumed they would be looking for law graduates (I was 16), but dad said the police didn't care what subject the degree was in, it was merely an indication of the candidate's ability to critique, analyse and process information at a level commensurate with a graduate. I would argue that the same is true today in most cases. It shouldn't matter a toss what your degree is 'in'...it's the fact that you have demonstrated the ability to critically analyse information at graduate level that should be the indicator of your potential. Unfortunately, outside of higher education this is poorly understood. It's also further obfuscated by the obsession with employability over all else, as if every degree should stovepipe somebody into a career for which their degree was essential, bespoke preparation. I will be attending my son's graduation on Thursday. He has gained a BSc in 'Psychology in Education', but he has no interest in becoming an educational psychologist. Neither should he be expected or obliged to be one. My elder daughters degree is in psychology, after uni she went into a career in public relations. I suppose you could argue there's a link between psychology and PR, but she says a degree is not necessary to do the job, but it is necessary to get your foot in the door. PR is a form of lying. It is one of my greatest hates that people learn psychology to lie more effectively, and I always spot the psychology tricks they use. I never use them myself. All I use it for is to try and make my communications more understandable, but in the industry they don't have such morals. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 19, 2023 12:16:09 GMT
My elder daughters degree is in psychology, after uni she went into a career in public relations. I suppose you could argue there's a link between psychology and PR, but she says a degree is not necessary to do the job, but it is necessary to get your foot in the door. PR is a form of lying. It is one of my greatest hates that people learn psychology to lie more effectively, and I always spot the psychology tricks they use. I never use them myself. All I use it for is to try and make my communications more understandable, but in the industry they don't have such morals. I suppose that's the cynical viewpoint. I suspect my daughter would say PR is the promotion & advertising of a company or companies product. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 12:26:45 GMT
PR is a form of lying. It is one of my greatest hates that people learn psychology to lie more effectively, and I always spot the psychology tricks they use. I never use them myself. All I use it for is to try and make my communications more understandable, but in the industry they don't have such morals. I suppose that's the cynical viewpoint. I suspect my daughter would say PR is the promotion & advertising of a company or companies product. Each time you hear an official statement from a firm on the telly it has been written by one of these PR firms. I know for certain because I use vocabulary and grammar forensics to identify who wrote what. Yes I too am using psychology here as well, but to lie to someone is is against my principles. Everything I've ever said on this forum has been as truthful as I know the facts. I never distort to favour any particular side. Indeed this is why so many hate what I say because truth can point in any way. Sometimes it is supportive of your position and sometimes not. It's like the media when they lie about the causes of war and that kind of thing. Liars do immense damage. In the end lying is a double-edged sword as in order to lie effectively you yourself must believe it, so you end up believing your own lies and go to hell, as many a politician we know has done too. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 19, 2023 13:01:18 GMT
To save quoting a whole load i’ll take that point about the degree in soap drama appreciation separately. I mentioned on the site the actions of Professor Sir Bernard Knight who went out and asked a polytechnic to sit down with a learned society and hand craft a syllabus of suitable rigour to test those seeking to apply to work with him as a Forensic Scientist. I knew the man through his and my professions and where they overlapped. Dad knew him from his school days. As i said then about four other academic establishments took up the offer from the Royal Society of Chemistry to accept that course and the accompanying RSC accreditation. Something similar in more recent years has been accredited by the British Computer Society for Computer Forensics. Against that background many other ‘academic’ bodies abused their charters - that allow them to assemble a syllabus and offer a degree based upon it - to ‘offer’ a course sounding similar but not actually accredited and thus worthless. Some scorn poured on some courses is possibly undeserved, one particular ‘degree’ ridiculed by the press as being in ‘beach management’ deserves ridicule as a degree for in reality it is more an MBA offered as a specific course with a specific aim for those seeking formal qualification in business skills in the leisure industry which is somewhat more substantial than it may seem. But yes several of those Forensic Science courses were little more than media studies appreciation and i was not sure whether i was more shocked by the bare faced cheek of the criminals presenting the course as useful, or the stupidity of the mugs taking it for believing the hype and bollox. It is a sad reflection on our times. I do not myself recall a university at the time I applied whose offered courses in the subjects that attracted my interest were NOT accredited by one or other of the trade, industry or professional bodies. Only a fool would have offered a law degree the Bar would not accept a student of, and my own degree gave immediate membership - for the usual (nominal) fee - as a graduate member of the Biochemical Society, the recognised learned body. So-called professional bodies have turned into fuckwits these days. They have invited the woke to run them. They are part of the problem. do you have any particular ones in mind ? The BCS has shown a measure of its shall we say analretentive qualities by saying a graduate PHYSICAL CHEMIST is welcome to join under their professional development programme while ORGANIC chemists, molecular biologists, pharmacists and virologists all of whom stress test computers far more than physical chemists ever do are banned but thats just the way they run their little club. Who were you thinking of ? |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 13:15:11 GMT
So-called professional bodies have turned into fuckwits these days. They have invited the woke to run them. They are part of the problem. do you have any particular ones in mind ? The BCS has shown a measure of its shall we say analretentive qualities by saying a graduate PHYSICAL CHEMIST is welcome to join under their professional development programme while ORGANIC chemists, molecular biologists, pharmacists and virologists all of whom stress test computers far more than physical chemists ever do are banned but thats just the way they run their little club. Who were you thinking of ? Try reading one of the IET mags. All the engineering has been removed from them and now it is just as bunch of woke clowns awarding each other prizes for bullshit. I think it has been taken over by women who believe in girl power and were probably influenced by Spice Girls. This is they 20 years on, in Wonderland. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 13:18:59 GMT
PR is a form of lying. It is one of my greatest hates that people learn psychology to lie more effectively, and I always spot the psychology tricks they use. I never use them myself. All I use it for is to try and make my communications more understandable, but in the industry they don't have such morals. I suppose that's the cynical viewpoint. I suspect my daughter would say PR is the promotion & advertising of a company or companies product. She proves what I was saying! lol.
Perhaps the new Turing Test for intelligence should be if something knows what it is (a bit like a man knows he is a man etc).
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 19, 2023 14:06:11 GMT
Adam Curtis' documentary 'The Century of the Self' provides a detailed insight into the psychological roots of public relations. Curtis tells the life story of Edward Bernays, usually considered the priginal architect of PR as a 'science'. Bernays was a nephew of Sigmund Freud. Curtis makes the point that Bernays techniques are used as much in government and politics as in business and commerce. Another Freud, Sigmund's great-grandson, Matthew is a noted PR consultant and is credited by Curtis as being instrumental in New Labour's electoral victory in 1997. PR practitioners are probably quite happy for the rest of us to dismiss their activities as 'fluff'.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 19, 2023 19:37:03 GMT
Adam Curtis' documentary 'The Century of the Self' provides a detailed insight into the psychological roots of public relations. Curtis tells the life story of Edward Bernays, usually considered the priginal architect of PR as a 'science'. Bernays was a nephew of Sigmund Freud. Curtis makes the point that Bernays techniques are used as much in government and politics as in business and commerce. Another Freud, Sigmund's great-grandson, Matthew is a noted PR consultant and is credited by Curtis as being instrumental in New Labour's electoral victory in 1997. PR practitioners are probably quite happy for the rest of us to dismiss their activities as 'fluff'.
Very interesting.
In fact one of Freud's famous books is one of the books I have on my bookshelf. Looking at the start of that, it appears what Freud and his students and relatives did was something I spotted at the time. It was during my university days. I could not understand why the students were acting so crazy, so I had to go understanding a bit more about it. I also learnt about the feminist movement and a great deal more. Manchester was certainly a good place to find rare books and do this kind of research before the internet existed.
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Post by Orac on Jul 24, 2023 8:12:48 GMT
Employers used to rely significantly on aptitude testing. However, this approach has become legally risky and so they have, more or less, outsourced candidate filtering to universities / HR bureaucracy. Unfortunately, the outsourcing provides a vector for corruption which is being fully exploited. I honestly don't think it' will be long 'til the whole thing caves in under its own weight.
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