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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 17, 2023 10:48:44 GMT
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-66216005I’ll put it in here because as always the BBC post stuff on education like we were still a united kingdom, ignoring their chum Blair exterminated that. The problem lies with the autonomy of tbe ‘university’ embedded in their charter Real professionals in the classic professions have always had to submit their degree result papers to a profession centric body and pay them a fee of course to obtain a separate piece of paper that authorises them to practise their profession. Doctors and Surgeons have the General Medical Council. Not sure who dentists and opticians send theirs to. Engineers have theirs. Pharmacists have to be registered. If i wished to enter the pharmaceutical manufacturing business it would be a trivial matter for me to submit my degree paperwork and get a manufacturer's licence from the government. This is how it has always been In the late seventies dad’s school pal now head of the forensic science service in Wales approached Treforest Polytechnic and wailed at the paucity of trained people he could recruit. He asked the Dean and the Royal Society of Chemistry to collaborate on creating a syllabus to suit his needs. The resulting course whose syllabus was accredited was offered by four academic establishments and the Home Office breathed a sigh if relief. By the time season eight of CSI : Crime Scene Investigation came out nearly eighty courses were offered by british ‘universities’ only eight were accredited and the universities were conning students left right and centre. I say this crackdown is long, long overdue
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 17, 2023 12:01:03 GMT
One possible way to improve quality is to work with counties doing it right. Countries vary widely in academic quality. Take India and China for example. Indian tech is low grade and cowboy like. China tech is now leading the world in many fields. We first of all need to learn to discriminate. For example the Chinese Academy of Sciences is a world leading institution with a very good track record, e.g. look at patents or some measure like that. Two other places which are also good to work with is South Korea and Japan. If you put together a research team with some Brits and some from reputable institutions from the above you would achieve more than either on its own, as per win-win. Oxford has partnered with a Korean university and reckons it is the best thing they did. The reason is different cultures think fundamentality differently. I can vouch for that as in the last few years I've been tapping into what ideas they have over there.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2023 15:46:30 GMT
And yet our universities have thousands of Chinese students. That must be because we teach well. They wouldn't pay for substandard, would they?
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 17, 2023 17:20:02 GMT
Another problem is kids today, or should I say 'young people' are encouraged to believe that university is a right of passage regardless of ability. Presumably the thinking is that any dummy has the right to a degree, and looking at some of the stupid courses on offer these days it's probably a fair comment.
Anecdotally: I was (Some time ago now) talking to a friends daughter who would shortly be leaving school. I asked her what she intended to do, she said she was going to uni. I asked what she intended to study, she shrugged and said 'I dunno'. I wasn't rude because it was my friends daughter, but I'm pretty sure the look on my face said it all.
As it happens she started a two year photography course, which she dropped out of after about six months because I knew, her parents knew and her school obviously knew, she was not university material. However, these days telling the truth is not the done thing. Perish the thought the little darlings should become offended.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 17, 2023 17:32:42 GMT
This issue is currently being discussed on GB News, someone has just said and I apologise for not knowing his name: 'entry to university should be based on ability, not background'. How right he is, and how stupid it is that it needs to be said.
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Post by patman post on Jul 17, 2023 18:20:35 GMT
This issue is currently being discussed on GB News, someone has just said and I apologise for not knowing his name: 'entry to university should be based on ability, not background'. How right he is, and how stupid it is that it needs to be said. I'd also add, worth. That is, what use is the (are the) subject(s) studied likely to be to the student.
It's true that some corporations only recruit graduates because they believe a degree shows an ability to learn and enough intelligence to retain data long enough to recall it when asked — I'm sure that's true in my case. But I may well have been happier as an apprentice — I certainly put myself through plumbing and electrical courses in my late twenties because of my interest in property maintenance...
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Post by Red Rackham on Jul 17, 2023 18:43:00 GMT
This issue is currently being discussed on GB News, someone has just said and I apologise for not knowing his name: 'entry to university should be based on ability, not background'. How right he is, and how stupid it is that it needs to be said. I'd also add, worth. That is, what use is the (are the) subject(s) studied likely to be to the student.
It's true that some corporations only recruit graduates because they believe a degree shows an ability to learn and enough intelligence to retain data long enough to recall it when asked — I'm sure that's true in my case. But I may well have been happier as an apprentice — I certainly put myself through plumbing and electrical courses in my late twenties because of my interest in property maintenance...
I tend to think you're right. I remember my elder daughter struggled through a three year university course, she found it difficult but with encouragement kept at it bless her. A few years later I asked her whether she thought those three years were worth it, she said, and this eludes to what you said above, that without a degree particularly in her field, a prospective employer wouldn't even consider someone who didn't have a university education. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 18, 2023 12:22:40 GMT
And yet our universities have thousands of Chinese students. That must be because we teach well. They wouldn't pay for substandard, would they? Someone who went to the LSE a few decades back when China was just emerging as a proto-superpower, said all the Chinese students were sons and daughters of the CPC! Actually China's top negotiator who represents China in China-US meetings went to the LSE and Bath. his nickname is tiger. He's a funny guy, and the CPC like him because he understands the way Westerners think very clearly. So there you have it. There's a whole load of British thinking in the CPC, and they do like us as their time at university here was likely to be an enjoyable experience. China was very poor back then. Very few travelled outside of China so they saw it as a privilege to come here. They had money of course. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 18, 2023 12:25:40 GMT
An easy way to resolve this is to jettison every course which has the word 'Studies' in the title.
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 18, 2023 12:28:59 GMT
Re Chinese students. It's not using the UK, they also dominate the foreign student ranks across the Anglosphere.
I suspect one reason the UK may be especially popular at the moment is the (re-)opening up of the Graduate work visa route which entitles anyone graduating from a British university to stay on for at least a further two years, no questions asked, job or no job.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 18, 2023 13:01:16 GMT
Re Chinese students. It's not using the UK, they also dominate the foreign student ranks across the Anglosphere. I suspect one reason the UK may be especially popular at the moment is the (re-)opening up of the Graduate work visa route which entitles anyone graduating from a British university to stay on for at least a further two years, no questions asked, job or no job. I think we're trading on past reputation a bit with China now. They love Oxford and Cambridge, plus I think Manchester is still popular, but as you know, in recent years the quality has dived down. It's typical when you are abroad that the country you are in has an understanding of the English which lags the current time, sometimes by several decades. If you were taught English in Malta you would end up sounding like the Queen! |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 18, 2023 13:12:38 GMT
Well, if you're right about the quality going down, it hasn't had any effect on the numbers from China. In fact they are at record levels, Chinese being by far the largest cohort of foreign students at UK universities.
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Post by Cartertonian on Jul 18, 2023 18:24:24 GMT
Knocking on forty years ago, I had a conversation with my dad (a senior police officer at the time) about the new 'fast-track' scheme in the police, which recruited only graduates and then fast-tracked them to inspector in about 5 years, IIRC. I assumed they would be looking for law graduates (I was 16), but dad said the police didn't care what subject the degree was in, it was merely an indication of the candidate's ability to critique, analyse and process information at a level commensurate with a graduate.
I would argue that the same is true today in most cases. It shouldn't matter a toss what your degree is 'in'...it's the fact that you have demonstrated the ability to critically analyse information at graduate level that should be the indicator of your potential.
Unfortunately, outside of higher education this is poorly understood. It's also further obfuscated by the obsession with employability over all else, as if every degree should stovepipe somebody into a career for which their degree was essential, bespoke preparation.
I will be attending my son's graduation on Thursday. He has gained a BSc in 'Psychology in Education', but he has no interest in becoming an educational psychologist. Neither should he be expected or obliged to be one.
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Post by wapentake on Jul 18, 2023 19:57:10 GMT
Knocking on forty years ago, I had a conversation with my dad (a senior police officer at the time) about the new 'fast-track' scheme in the police, which recruited only graduates and then fast-tracked them to inspector in about 5 years, IIRC. I assumed they would be looking for law graduates (I was 16), but dad said the police didn't care what subject the degree was in, it was merely an indication of the candidate's ability to critique, analyse and process information at a level commensurate with a graduate. I would argue that the same is true today in most cases. It shouldn't matter a toss what your degree is 'in'...it's the fact that you have demonstrated the ability to critically analyse information at graduate level that should be the indicator of your potential. Unfortunately, outside of higher education this is poorly understood. It's also further obfuscated by the obsession with employability over all else, as if every degree should stovepipe somebody into a career for which their degree was essential, bespoke preparation. I will be attending my son's graduation on Thursday. He has gained a BSc in 'Psychology in Education', but he has no interest in becoming an educational psychologist. Neither should he be expected or obliged to be one. That is all very well but some degrees are more popular than others though of little use to man nor beast imo. There are people we need the inventors,those that will research and innovate and long term add to the country there are of course the medical people personally certain degrees imo are worthless i.e. central lancs university offered a degree in soap operas are you seriously saying it has similar value to others? How many people are required in photography for instance,tbh I’d charge higher student fees for those of little use and for others not a bean unless of course they decide after graduating taking their skills elsewhere. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 18, 2023 21:19:07 GMT
Well, if you're right about the quality going down, it hasn't had any effect on the numbers from China. In fact they are at record levels, Chinese being by far the largest cohort of foreign students at UK universities. Yes I'm aware of that. We are probably at the peak. There are a few reasons.
1) Chinese universities are getting seriously advanced these days. 2) Chinese students are suffering racism abroad since Trump badmouthed them, e.g. covid and so on.
3) US and UK sanctions against China. You see China's people's liberation army is larger than just the military. The party has some 90% support and so the population do their bit, which is a case of personally sanctioning us. This is more prominent in the US, but the UK is seen as badass number two by an increasing number. For example chip sanctions & banning Huawei. Chinese academics are returning home to help their country in the time of need and save it like. They are very patriotic.
One caveat on the last one is it might work in our favour if the Chinese choose us over the US. Quite a lot see it more a case of the UK was forced to attack China by the US, so that lets us off to an extent. Our government is treading a fine line.
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