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Post by Orac on Jul 15, 2023 23:25:48 GMT
I didn't say that that was the case. The extra taxes are still adding costs The reason (imo) why interest rates are better is because they select for efficiency, while our taxes tend to select against efficiency. And you did say it, in your bid to show interest rates are better at controlling inflation than tax rises. You said that taxes reduce productivity, without saying so do interest rates. Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. When you suggested taxation, I assumed you meant to add to the pool of revenue for expenditure. I assumed this because you have often expressed the wish to buckle and break the uk population under a mountain of government debt and taxes |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 16, 2023 8:33:43 GMT
And you did say it, in your bid to show interest rates are better at controlling inflation than tax rises. You said that taxes reduce productivity, without saying so do interest rates. Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. No it wasn't. My criticism was that they hurt a small proportion of the people unfairly while lining the pockets of others. I am aware that taxes can also hurt people but that burden can be spread more fairly than just those with mortgages. Also if you are trying to reduce spending and thus lower inflation then you need to more effect those with money to spare, so not young families with mortgages. I'm Soo tempted to reply with some equal garbage about you. But I really can't be bothered. There's plenty of name calling on here already, that's supposed to be a viable alternative to reasoned argument. Call someone Leftie, that will do. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jul 16, 2023 8:44:22 GMT
Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. No it wasn't. My criticism was that they hurt a small proportion of the people unfairly while lining the pockets of others. I am aware that taxes can also hurt people but that burden can be spread more fairly than just those with mortgages. Also if you are trying to reduce spending and thus lower inflation then you need to more effect those with money to spare, so not young families with mortgages. I'm Soo tempted to reply with some equal garbage about you. But I really can't be bothered. There's plenty of name calling on here already, that's supposed to be a viable alternative to reasoned argument. Call someone Leftie, that will do. Tax cuts only benefit those over the £155,000 income, so that rules out the little people, they wouldn't even notice a tax cut.
So why would you reward the wealthy with tax cuts?
I imagine Sunak would love tax cuts given the fact his family and his in-laws are multimillionaires, so yes he's probably going to feather their nests even more if he can, he's even meddling with inheritance tax yet again to benefit his own self-serving interests.
One way that could help the 'little' people would be to cut VAT, yet again most wealthy people claim VAT back, I am in favour of the mansion tax, which we know will never happen, it's unjust that those with the broader shoulders aren't carrying their fair share of the weight.
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Post by Orac on Jul 16, 2023 9:11:39 GMT
I am aware that taxes can also hurt people but that burden can be spread more fairly than just those with mortgages. Also if you are trying to reduce spending and thus lower inflation then you need to more effect those with money to spare, so not young families with mortgages. I think, if you want fair, you would have to take several steps back and take a hard look at what is being taxed. You would also have to take a bit of squint at why normal working people have to take on debts in the order of a fraction of a million pounds just to stand somewhere in the UK. All this aside, neither option is going to be satisfying because both require the introduction of pain and pain tends to transmit down. It's a bit late now to look at this borked monstrosity and demand it suddenly produce 'fairness'. Someone who loses their job because their company moves an operation is in a similar pickle to someone who can no longer pay their mortgage because interest rates have shifted - it is the same pain being processed through a different vector. In general it is better to use the market to sort these things, rather than politics. There is the also that elephant in the room - asset prices need to come down for our society to be workable and that fall in price will mean pain for large numbers of people who did nothing wrong. (the same dilemma we faced about 14 years ago) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 9:27:01 GMT
And you did say it, in your bid to show interest rates are better at controlling inflation than tax rises. You said that taxes reduce productivity, without saying so do interest rates. Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. When you suggested taxation, I assumed you meant to add to the pool of revenue for expenditure. I assumed this because you have often expressed the wish to buckle and break the uk population under a mountain of government debt and taxes It always seems to come back to hurting the people, which will only end up hurting more people when business' fly away looking for another nest. It makes you wonder what all of these taxes are supposed to be spent on, because I am seeing a lot of waste and public money used on virue signalling crusades. We don't need more taxation, we need competent government. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jul 16, 2023 9:34:50 GMT
Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. When you suggested taxation, I assumed you meant to add to the pool of revenue for expenditure. I assumed this because you have often expressed the wish to buckle and break the uk population under a mountain of government debt and taxes It always seems to come back to hurting the people, which will only end up hurting more people when business' fly away looking for another nest. It makes you wonder what all of these taxes are supposed to be spent on, because I am seeing a lot of waste and public money used on virue signalling crusades. We don't need more taxation, we need competent government. We've been here before, and the last time round the financial crash 2008 they did exactly what they are doing now, making the 'little' people shoulder the burden, did it work then... NO... will it work this time round ....NO... so nothing learnt from history there then, just repeating itself. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 16, 2023 9:39:40 GMT
Your criticism of interest rates rises was that they hurt people - i simply pointed out that taxes do the same. When you suggested taxation, I assumed you meant to add to the pool of revenue for expenditure. I assumed this because you have often expressed the wish to buckle and break the uk population under a mountain of government debt and taxes It always seems to come back to hurting the people, which will only end up hurting more people when business' fly away looking for another nest. It makes you wonder what all of these taxes are supposed to be spent on, because I am seeing a lot of waste and public money used on virue signalling crusades. We don't need more taxation, we need competent government. It's one of the giant cornerstone's of our nations problems. A berserk, out of control public sector that now seems to all but run the country - and it is, of course, running it into the ground. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 16, 2023 9:43:18 GMT
It always seems to come back to hurting the people, which will only end up hurting more people when business' fly away looking for another nest. It makes you wonder what all of these taxes are supposed to be spent on, because I am seeing a lot of waste and public money used on virue signalling crusades. We don't need more taxation, we need competent government. We've been here before, and the last time round the financial crash 2008 they did exactly what they are doing now, making the 'little' people shoulder the burden, did it work then... NO... will it work this time round ....NO... so nothing learnt from history there then, just repeating itself. In 2008+ crash there were massive interventions that acted to soften the blow to mortgage holders It's quite possible that that missed pain has been stored up in the system (pain is often conserved) |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2023 10:13:26 GMT
It appears that inflation is being caused by profiteering by the multinationals so no amount of interest rises will stop it.
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Post by zanygame on Jul 16, 2023 10:44:42 GMT
I am aware that taxes can also hurt people but that burden can be spread more fairly than just those with mortgages. Also if you are trying to reduce spending and thus lower inflation then you need to more effect those with money to spare, so not young families with mortgages. I think, if you want fair, you would have to take several steps back and take a hard look at what is being taxed. You would also have to take a bit of squint at why normal working people have to take on debts in the order of a fraction of a million pounds just to stand somewhere in the UK. All this aside, neither option is going to be satisfying because both require the introduction of pain and pain tends to transmit down. It's a bit late now to look at this borked monstrosity and demand it suddenly produce 'fairness'. Someone who loses their job because their company moves an operation is in a similar pickle to someone who can no longer pay their mortgage because interest rates have shifted - it is the same pain being processed through a different vector. In general it is better to use the market to sort these things, rather than politics. There is the also that elephant in the room - asset prices need to come down for our society to be workable and that fall in price will mean pain for large numbers of people who did nothing wrong. (the same dilemma we faced about 14 years ago) I am not discussing tax rates in this thread. I am discussing inflation and whether it would be better controlled by raising taxes rather than raising interest rates. There is a significant difference between the two for ME. In the case above all income tax would be raised sharing the pain equally among those earning income. My wishes for a fairer tax system that brings this country back up to the standards of of neighbours is entirely more complex. |
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Post by buccaneer on Jul 16, 2023 10:51:29 GMT
There is a strong correlation between the UK's productivity slowdown and ultra low interest rates that followed in 2008. It has led some economists to believe that interest rates need to go back to pre-banking crisis levels to support productivity growth. This is more concerned with the UK's stagnation rather than inflation and probably worthy of a thread of its own. www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk/the-great-stagnation-brexit-not-to-blame/ |
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Post by Orac on Jul 16, 2023 11:20:52 GMT
There is a strong correlation between the UK's productivity slowdown and ultra low interest rates that followed in 2008. It has led some economists to believe that interest rates need to go back to pre-banking crisis levels to support productivity growth. This is more concerned with the UK's stagnation rather than inflation and probably worthy of a thread of its own. www.briefingsforbritain.co.uk/the-great-stagnation-brexit-not-to-blame/Very interesting article. Two things caught my eye - The manufacturing productivity boost in 2020, as HR was furloughed - followed by productivity returning downwards, as HR returned to work. "With rock-bottom interest rates, economic theory would suggest that firms would invest more, leading to higher productivity, but the opposite has happened. Investment has been generally low. With less capital than might have been expected, firms needed more employees than would otherwise have been the case."An escape route partially facilitated by mass migration |
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Post by Fairsociety on Jul 16, 2023 11:51:47 GMT
It appears that inflation is being caused by profiteering by the multinationals so no amount of interest rises will stop it. This post ^^ proves you can talk sense when you put your mind to it. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 16, 2023 11:51:53 GMT
I think, if you want fair, you would have to take several steps back and take a hard look at what is being taxed. You would also have to take a bit of squint at why normal working people have to take on debts in the order of a fraction of a million pounds just to stand somewhere in the UK. All this aside, neither option is going to be satisfying because both require the introduction of pain and pain tends to transmit down. It's a bit late now to look at this borked monstrosity and demand it suddenly produce 'fairness'. Someone who loses their job because their company moves an operation is in a similar pickle to someone who can no longer pay their mortgage because interest rates have shifted - it is the same pain being processed through a different vector. In general it is better to use the market to sort these things, rather than politics. There is the also that elephant in the room - asset prices need to come down for our society to be workable and that fall in price will mean pain for large numbers of people who did nothing wrong. (the same dilemma we faced about 14 years ago) There is a significant difference between the two for ME. In the case above all income tax would be raised sharing the pain equally among those earning income. You want to hold the current asset-holders in position and get the rest of the community to pay the shortfall in their bet. This is , more or less, what we did last time and the result is a baggy, stagnated economy. How would you argue against this accusation - that you are making tenants pay to hold in place their landlord's position over them - that the real-estate price you are protecting acts as an uneven cost-benefit (a cost to some and benefit to others)? Having held the real estate owners in place and real-estate prices high, are these owners then going to be forced to disperse the benefits of their state maintained position to others? |
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Post by sheepy on Jul 16, 2023 12:20:21 GMT
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