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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 12:18:39 GMT
And I'm saying that's the fate of the overwhelming majority of refugees, tens of millions of them.
So I'll ask again. Are you in favour of giving them all a shot at claiming asylum in the UK? If not, why not?
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Post by sheepy on Jul 12, 2023 12:19:48 GMT
That's what most refugees experience, the lucky few who land on the UK red carpet are very much the exception. Are you proposing that all should have a shot at claiming asylum in the UK? I think that's what dappy would like to see. I'm saying that condemning refugees to a life of internment with little or no chance of ever going home is neither productive or humane. These are not criminals who need locking up they are innocent victims of failed states and authoritarian regimes. A very sizeable proportion of them know exactly who caused their failed states and know they are the sword of retribution, not the so innocent the Neo Liberals would have us believe a large proportion of them having disappeared into a system created for them already. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 12, 2023 12:32:23 GMT
I'm saying that condemning refugees to a life of internment with little or no chance of ever going home is neither productive or humane. These are not criminals who need locking up they are innocent victims of failed states and authoritarian regimes. A very sizeable proportion of them know exactly who caused their failed states and know they are the sword of retribution, not the so innocent the Neo Liberals would have us believe a large proportion of them having disappeared into a system created for them already. Sure, label them as terrorists and then accuse liberals of being emotive. |
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Post by sheepy on Jul 12, 2023 12:35:05 GMT
A very sizeable proportion of them know exactly who caused their failed states and know they are the sword of retribution, not the so innocent the Neo Liberals would have us believe a large proportion of them having disappeared into a system created for them already. Sure, label them as terrorists and then accuse liberals of being emotive. I already said it is past the point of no return, I didn't label them all either, call them what you will, usually it is British at some point. Such as home grown no doubt. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 12, 2023 13:06:38 GMT
This is the Mind Zone. I understand this is the area where sensible debate is encouraged. Lets see if we can achieve that with the emotive subject of asylum. Asylum seekers come in many different guises. Some clearly have genuine reasons for fleeing their home country, some are simply seeking a better life but are quite safe at home, for some its more nuanced. I think we all would agree that those simply seeking a better life can not be accommodated. There is more debate about those that do have a valid reason for fleeing. So lets focus on them. Haval and Asmira are both 25. They are in law Syrian but are ethnically Kurdish. There is a war going on in their home area as Turkey and Syria fight over their home area. Bombs regularly fall and rule of law is weak. Their two year old child and both sets of parents have been killed in the conflict and their home badly damaged. They decide to flee with their remaining baby son. The route out is through Turkey (but Syrian Kurds are not safe there) and on to Greece. They have arrived by irregular means in Athens. Asmira has suffered sexual abuse en route and Haval has been beaten up. Haval has a brother living legally in Germany who has offered to help him. He and Asmira speak fluent English but speak no other non-Kurdish language. They believe they would have the best chance of rebuilding their lives in the UK. Lets assume Greece would be considered a "safe" country. Under pretty much any jurisdiction, this family would be entitled to be granted asylum. So what should happen now? the UNHCR treaty that britain signed decades before there was an EEC called for refugees from conflict to be given refuge in countries nearest the conflict for the duration of such after which they should be returned to their country of origin I see no good reason to deflect from that. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 12, 2023 13:08:29 GMT
This is the Mind Zone. I understand this is the area where sensible debate is encouraged. Lets see if we can achieve that with the emotive subject of asylum. Asylum seekers come in many different guises. Some clearly have genuine reasons for fleeing their home country, some are simply seeking a better life but are quite safe at home, for some its more nuanced. I think we all would agree that those simply seeking a better life can not be accommodated. There is more debate about those that do have a valid reason for fleeing. So lets focus on them. Haval and Asmira are both 25. They are in law Syrian but are ethnically Kurdish. There is a war going on in their home area as Turkey and Syria fight over their home area. Bombs regularly fall and rule of law is weak. Their two year old child and both sets of parents have been killed in the conflict and their home badly damaged. They decide to flee with their remaining baby son. The route out is through Turkey (but Syrian Kurds are not safe there) and on to Greece. They have arrived by irregular means in Athens. Asmira has suffered sexual abuse en route and Haval has been beaten up. Haval has a brother living legally in Germany who has offered to help him. He and Asmira speak fluent English but speak no other non-Kurdish language. They believe they would have the best chance of rebuilding their lives in the UK. Lets assume Greece would be considered a "safe" country. Under pretty much any jurisdiction, this family would be entitled to be granted asylum. So what should happen now? the UNHCR treaty that britain signed decades before there was an EEC called for refugees from conflict to be given refuge in countries nearest the conflict for the duration of such after which they should be returned to their country of origin I see no good reason to deflect from that. When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 12, 2023 13:43:14 GMT
the UNHCR treaty that britain signed decades before there was an EEC called for refugees from conflict to be given refuge in countries nearest the conflict for the duration of such after which they should be returned to their country of origin I see no good reason to deflect from that. When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? i have no idea. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 12, 2023 13:54:29 GMT
When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? i have no idea. The problem in a nutshell. Unless you wish to condem families to a lifetime in detention. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2023 14:00:55 GMT
Anyone unfamiliar might think it was us attacking the Kurds, rather than offering an extra option for them.
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Post by sheepy on Jul 12, 2023 15:52:43 GMT
the UNHCR treaty that britain signed decades before there was an EEC called for refugees from conflict to be given refuge in countries nearest the conflict for the duration of such after which they should be returned to their country of origin I see no good reason to deflect from that. When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? Most likely never, as the Yanks fellow NATO member Turkey sees them as terrorists. But to be fair the Kurds are the least of the problems, when I am told for a fact that other displaced persons through destruction of war have decided they are going another route to reach their goals. Who have in fact cleverly set up whole routes of doing so. Including large funds which when they come back through traffickers are used to buy up political influence through charities and company investment. While of course you only consider the poor displaced folk who are perfect for the job.Of course I could have made it up, but then again I have people pointing out they are mostly young men. Who also treat the new host as fodder especially the women it seems. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 12, 2023 16:27:16 GMT
the UNHCR treaty that britain signed decades before there was an EEC called for refugees from conflict to be given refuge in countries nearest the conflict for the duration of such after which they should be returned to their country of origin I see no good reason to deflect from that. When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? How many Kurds do you want to let in? |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 12, 2023 17:35:52 GMT
When do you think it will be safe for Kurds to return to Syria? How many Kurds do you want to let in? Our fair share. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 12, 2023 17:45:23 GMT
Good swerve..  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 17:46:11 GMT
How many Kurds do you want to let in? Our fair share. You see them like sweets being handed out? With our institutions at breaking point, housing and cost of living going through the roof, our population intentionally fattened up to the point we're one of the most densly populated countries on Earth, I think these good feelies need to be put in their place and face the reality that the current trend is clearly insane. While this insanity continues the UK will always be known as the dumping ground. We should be pressuring neighbouring countries to do their bit. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Jul 12, 2023 17:50:55 GMT
Good swerve.. It's not a swerve. We can't be expected to take them all but we have a responsibility under treaties we have signed to provide asylum to our fair share. |
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