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Post by Pacifico on Jul 12, 2023 10:51:32 GMT
Perhaps the original strategic blunder was to encourage an aspiration for American or Australian styles of mobility in a country so small, crowded and devoid of physical resources. The Singapore model, which combines tight restrictions on private vehicle ownership with a highly-efficient public transport infrastructure would have been a better option, even allowing for difference in scale. This all great but i do feel my point about freight has been painted over and ignored. Concentrating on passenger transport first is (imho) doing the hard bit first The point about freight is that shifting it to rail is incredibly expensive and inefficient. You would get trucks collecting a few pallets from a factory to take them to the station to tranship them onto a train to take them to another station to again tranship them onto another truck to take it to the destination,. Otherwise you could get the original truck to deliver the load.. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 12, 2023 10:57:07 GMT
As far as I'm aware very few manufactured goods travel by rail in the UK. Freight traffic is predominantly bulk materials like limestone and aggregate, liquid fuels and scrap/waste. Some cars as well I believe, but only to a port for export.
I suspect the scope for expanding rail freight is quite limited for the reasons you suggest. This is why I can't get 100% behind Orac's argument that reducing HGVs should be a higher priority than reducing passenger cars.
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 12, 2023 22:14:04 GMT
@john of Gwent: wrt to your post on public transport I believe I already made a similar point earlier. Wrt the one prior, I don't believe there is any conspiracy to reduce us to the status of feudal serfs rather what we are witnessing and participating is the natural endgame of a society that has consistently lived beyond its means and the start of a process which will drag us screaming and shouting into a more sustainable future. In the UK that involve the choice between twenty million fewer cars or twenty million fewer people. Take your pick. well, as a chap invited to the oxford union privste debating club said recently, the uk contribution to global c02 is less than 2% and if we sank beneath the waves tomorrow it would make sod all difference. I don’t believe we as a society have exceeded our means fir that very reason. If the planet is truly in danger, and i don’t believe it is, then the problem driving the climate emergency is not in wales where the first fuckwit thinks it can be saved, but in india and china, one country whose elite don't give a shit about the poor, life is cheap and expendable, and in the other the elite in charge have the means to control in ways big brother would stand in awe of. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 13, 2023 1:31:50 GMT
As for this debate about the wind and sun is inconsistent, you might be interested in this. Learn about your country's electricity supply from down under.
Oh and big tick from me regarding the presenter. It's rare to see a woman do leccy stuff, but she's one who knows what she is talking about and I found it quite educational.
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 23, 2023 20:34:54 GMT
As far as I'm aware very few manufactured goods travel by rail in the UK. Freight traffic is predominantly bulk materials like limestone and aggregate, liquid fuels and scrap/waste. Some cars as well I believe, but only to a port for export.
I suspect the scope for expanding rail freight is quite limited for the reasons you suggest. This is why I can't get 100% behind Orac's argument that reducing HGVs should be a higher priority than reducing passenger cars.
No, the largest volume of freight moved by rail is shipping containers... which can contain absolutely anything. The containers are moved between ports and rail freight depots throughout the country... where they are then transported by ships or lorries. HS2 will create move space on the network for freight, but we are a nation of children so instead we argue over the need to get from Birmingham to London 10 minutes quicker etc. "Throwing all freight onto a train" to get lorries off the road is obviously a ridiculous idea as there would be massive bottlenecks getting it on / off the trains and the "Just In Time" model wouldn't work... so good luck having freshly stocked supermarket shelves. Quoting that Switzerland does it is just irrelevant. They have tiny populations, and the price of their goods is astronomical! |
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Post by wapentake on Jul 23, 2023 21:13:07 GMT
I'm not sure I see the connection between restrictions on private vehicle ownership and the right to carry a gun. It's not one that the Singaporeans have ever made. Can you elaborate? I think the point is people don’t feel safe in many places certainly not public transport and are happier in their own space. Perhaps the Singaporeans don’t feel the need to carry weapons,I mean you get jail time for littering and whichever way that is a connection. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 23, 2023 21:57:34 GMT
People need not be massively inconvenienced, at least great masses need not be, if a coherent public transport system in in place. I as in Brussels two weeks ago and saw (and traveled on) just such a system so they can exist. I don't believe the people of Singapore consider themselves massively inconvenienced because they can't just walk into a car dealership, sign up on the never-never and drive off in the gas guzzler of their dreams. You don't seem to have noticed that I agreed with your point about the need to divert freight to rail.
I also agree that it is a political issue and any question concerning the allocation of resources will always be.
ah now brussels …. I rented one of the apartments about a mile outside Knokke Heist put the car in the residents car park and didn’t use it again for a month. They had a tram that ran the full length of the country along the beach from De Panne ? at the border with France to Knokke at the end of a wildlife reserve 400 yards from the dutch border and at Knokke the double decker electrified train took me to Belgian Telecom’s Brussels office and back for a pittance. Ok a handful of Euros. In Brussels the Carte Du Jour gave me the run of the place For a country that doesn't know how to elect a government they sure know how to run a transport infrastructure ! |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 24, 2023 9:52:47 GMT
HS2 will create move space on the network for freight, but we are a nation of children so instead we argue over the need to get from Birmingham to London 10 minutes quicker etc. "Throwing all freight onto a train" to get lorries off the road is obviously a ridiculous idea as there would be massive bottlenecks getting it on / off the trains and the "Just In Time" model wouldn't work... so good luck having freshly stocked supermarket shelves. Quoting that Switzerland does it is just irrelevant. They have tiny populations, and the price of their goods is astronomical! Obviously a distinction has to be made between local and long-distance goods traffic.
The reason I brought up Switzerland is that all freight traffic between Northern and Southern Europe has to cross the Alps at some point, unless it takes a very circuitous detour via Austria and the Balkans.
Switzerland is important because they decided many years ago to eliminate trans-alpine road freight traffic to the extent possible by constructing new 'base tunnels' through the Alps. Freight trains can now travel at speeds up to 160 km/h greatly relieving the load on existing tunnels and road passes.
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Post by dodgydave on Jul 24, 2023 13:24:29 GMT
HS2 will create move space on the network for freight, but we are a nation of children so instead we argue over the need to get from Birmingham to London 10 minutes quicker etc. "Throwing all freight onto a train" to get lorries off the road is obviously a ridiculous idea as there would be massive bottlenecks getting it on / off the trains and the "Just In Time" model wouldn't work... so good luck having freshly stocked supermarket shelves. Quoting that Switzerland does it is just irrelevant. They have tiny populations, and the price of their goods is astronomical! Obviously a distinction has to be made between local and long-distance goods traffic.
The reason I brought up Switzerland is that all freight traffic between Northern and Southern Europe has to cross the Alps at some point, unless it takes a very circuitous detour via Austria and the Balkans.
Switzerland is important because they decided many years ago to eliminate trans-alpine road freight traffic to the extent possible by constructing new 'base tunnels' through the Alps. Freight trains can now travel at speeds up to 160 km/h greatly relieving the load on existing tunnels and road passes.
Yeah, but Switzerland does it to make money. In reality most hauliers simply avoid Switerland altogether. I used to work for a company that had a rail line into their yard that used to deliver wood from Switzerland... now they just truck it in... far cheaper. Although, France and Italy are building new rail tunnels, and Italy is building new motorways... so maybe that will make the Swiss cut the train costs. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jul 24, 2023 13:55:24 GMT
In the meantime up to 120 heavy (2000t) freight trains traverse the Gotthard base tunnel alone each day. That's the equivalent of nearly 8,000 large trucks that no longer clog up the existing road tunnels and alpine passes.
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Post by besoeker3 on Jul 24, 2023 16:03:48 GMT
As for this debate about the wind and sun is inconsistent, you might be interested in this. Learn about your country's electricity supply from down under.
Oh and big tick from me regarding the presenter. It's rare to see a woman do leccy stuff, but she's one who knows what she is talking about and I found it quite educational.
Actually there are already significant HVDC exports from Europe and Africa. Typically 800 kV DC. Your lady is not inventing new. It is just adding different routes. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 24, 2023 16:24:30 GMT
I'm not sure I see the connection between restrictions on private vehicle ownership and the right to carry a gun. It's not one that the Singaporeans have ever made. Can you elaborate? I think the point is people don’t feel safe in many places certainly not public transport and are happier in their own space. Perhaps the Singaporeans don’t feel the need to carry weapons,I mean you get jail time for littering and whichever way that is a connection. Yes. I thought it was pretty obvious what i was alluding to as well. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 24, 2023 16:33:55 GMT
As for this debate about the wind and sun is inconsistent, you might be interested in this. Learn about your country's electricity supply from down under.
Oh and big tick from me regarding the presenter. It's rare to see a woman do leccy stuff, but she's one who knows what she is talking about and I found it quite educational.
Actually there are already significant HVDC exports from Europe and Africa. Typically 800 kV DC. Your lady is not inventing new. It is just adding different routes. I mentioned it because it was a good summary of the state of play and the way it explains the issues and solutions regarding HVDC. It will decrease our need for storage.
There is another trick you can do though, which is a gain for free. What you should do is sell the electricity at the market rate, i.e. cost plus pricing in real time. This way it removes market distortion and means you allow customers to optimise their demand for overall efficient generation and consumption. In the US I'm told a large amount of energy is consumed in cooling in summer, but it so happens it is more efficient to cool your house down in the middle of the night. The reason is to do with physics which you know about. The cost of electricity in the middle of the night is very cheap compared to the peak in mid afternoon. The cooling effects are the same but there is no reason to do it if you pay a flat rate.
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Post by besoeker3 on Jul 24, 2023 16:44:23 GMT
Actually there are already significant HVDC exports from Europe and Africa. Typically 800 kV DC. Your lady is not inventing new. It is just adding different routes. I mentioned it because it was a good summary of the state of play and the way it explains the issues and solutions regarding HVDC. It will decrease our need for storage.
Care to explain in detain ?? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 26, 2023 7:49:31 GMT
This all great but i do feel my point about freight has been painted over and ignored. Concentrating on passenger transport first is (imho) doing the hard bit first The point about freight is that shifting it to rail is incredibly expensive and inefficient. You would get trucks collecting a few pallets from a factory to take them to the station to tranship them onto a train to take them to another station to again tranship them onto another truck to take it to the destination,. Otherwise you could get the original truck to deliver the load.. to which the killer question is how far, how quickly. Freightliner was supposed to be the way forward about fifty years ago. These days i think we have advanced from tbe days of loading loose goods as per the nineteen twenties and thirties. Or was that eighteen twenties … The European Union caused the UK significant pollution wear and tear. Goods intended for Ireland were driven by truck from tbe European point of creation on a 20 then 32 then 38 then 42 then 44 ton lorry down two lane roads west of Carmarthen to the utter detriment of life in west wales for decades. With Brexit and the paperwork it imposed, it suddenly became cheaper, faster and less paper chase heavy to put the container on a DFDS Seaways ship and send that to Ireland instead. One day they’ll do it like the channel islands, a ferry with hardly any passengers laden with trailers left at the port and loaded by stevedores. Added bonus is no foreign lorry drivers crashing on roads they drivevon tbe wrong side of |
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