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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 7:06:27 GMT
No, according to you in 2023. You acknowledged above that travelling to the UK via Poland doesn't make Ukrainians any less refugees. Pillock. Hey that's my insult.🤣 |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2023 7:18:10 GMT
how? - unless they had to wait offshore until their application was adjudicated on, then it will have no impact. That's the idea. They apply in a third state, if they just rock up on our shore they are immediately deported to an application centre. It would require a change in the law, but then most people think that's well overdue. The key is that all the adjudication for such claims has to happen offshore. This removes a large part of the incentive for the current gigantic people trafficking trade. Your plan is rational but it comes in two components - what is effectively a recruitment centre and a deportation process that involves a third state. What perhaps needs to happen is the creation of an international run resource on an island. Basic barracks accommodation, food and limited (or no) wifi. From there inmates can make any application for asylum they wish or, if they suddenly remember who they are, they can go back to their homeland. Participating nations can move anyone who makes a claim to this resource. I feel this might be a way to (somewhat) draw a line under the costs and allow them to tail off. Any attempt to do this will be fiercely resisted by the vested interests involved in the trade. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 11:36:44 GMT
Small Boat Arrivals
Year Arrivals (% change from prior year)
2018 299
2019 1,843(+516.4%)
2020 8,466(+359.3%)
2021 28,526(+236.9%)
2022 45,755(+60.4%)
2023 11,433(As of 4 July 2023)
In England and Wales, a total of 40,572 women were victims of sexual assault in the year ending September 2021.
Why does it appear asylum seekers crossing the channel is a bigger 'story' in this country than sexual assaults on women?
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Post by Bentley on Jul 12, 2023 12:00:49 GMT
Small Boat Arrivals Year Arrivals (% change from prior year) 2018 299 2019 1,843(+516.4%) 2020 8,466(+359.3%) 2021 28,526(+236.9%) 2022 45,755(+60.4%) 2023 11,433(As of 4 July 2023) In England and Wales, a total of 40,572 women were victims of sexual assault in the year ending September 2021. Why does it appear asylum seekers crossing the channel is a bigger 'story' in this country than sexual assaults on women? Strawman. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 12, 2023 12:21:10 GMT
That's the idea. They apply in a third state, if they just rock up on our shore they are immediately deported to an application centre. It would require a change in the law, but then most people think that's well overdue. Sounds like the Rwanda plan... Not quite. With Rwanda we wait for them to rock up here, spend 2 years pissing about while they live in a hotel and then try to send them to Rwanda With my plan we tell them to go straight to Rwanda for processing and if they turn up on our shores without being processed we deport them immediately. I point out this does require the law to be updated to reflect the reality of today. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 12, 2023 12:23:20 GMT
How many safe countries did the Ukrainians travel through to get to the UK, (see my point above) Did large numbers of Ukrainians enter France illegally? I wasn't aware of this You are not comparing the same thing I am. But in answer to your question, they entered Poland illegally when they fled across the border. All that was different was the attitude when they got there. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2023 12:28:17 GMT
Did large numbers of Ukrainians enter France illegally? I wasn't aware of this You are not comparing the same thing I am. But in answer to your question, they entered Poland illegally when they fled across the border. All that was different was the attitude when they got there. ...and the border they crossed in from. Ukraine was clearly in a crisis and is bordering Poland. The refugee convention is specifically designed to allow this sort of movement. It wasn't designed to facilitate people'fleeing' from safe countries. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 12, 2023 12:30:51 GMT
That's the idea. They apply in a third state, if they just rock up on our shore they are immediately deported to an application centre. It would require a change in the law, but then most people think that's well overdue. The key is that all the adjudication for such claims has to happen offshore. This removes a large part of the incentive for the current gigantic people trafficking trade. Your plan is rational but it comes in two components - what is effectively a recruitment centre and a deportation process that involves a third state. What perhaps needs to happen is the creation of an international run resource on an island. Basic barracks accommodation, food and limited (or no) wifi. From there inmates can make any application for asylum they wish or, if they suddenly remember who they are, they can go back to their homeland. Participating nations can move anyone who makes a claim to this resource. I feel this might be a way to (somewhat) draw a line under the costs and allow them to tail off. Any attempt to do this will be fiercely resisted by the vested interests involved in the trade. In my opinion your punishment centres have only one purpose, to force people to return home so that only the very worst most desperate cases come. This runs a high risk of those deciding to stay and ending up dead. By allowing anyone to come to a safe place and apply, it enables you to hold people for as long as necessary until they have proven identity etc without the huge costs of doing so in the UK and without the risk of them disappearing into the black market. Both our schemes would have a huge effect on the economic migrants escaping poverty in Albania and the Sudan. As they would face a permanent life in a refugee camp, never reaching the promised land. One unfortunate side effect would probably be that the people smugglers would try to smuggle people into the country rather than leave them halfway across the channel to be collected. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2023 15:24:04 GMT
The key is that all the adjudication for such claims has to happen offshore. This removes a large part of the incentive for the current gigantic people trafficking trade. Your plan is rational but it comes in two components - what is effectively a recruitment centre and a deportation process that involves a third state. What perhaps needs to happen is the creation of an international run resource on an island. Basic barracks accommodation, food and limited (or no) wifi. From there inmates can make any application for asylum they wish or, if they suddenly remember who they are, they can go back to their homeland. Participating nations can move anyone who makes a claim to this resource. I feel this might be a way to (somewhat) draw a line under the costs and allow them to tail off. Any attempt to do this will be fiercely resisted by the vested interests involved in the trade. In my opinion your punishment centres have only one purpose, to force people to return home so that only the very worst most desperate cases come. This runs a high risk of those deciding to stay and ending up dead. By allowing anyone to come to a safe place and apply, it enables you to hold people for as long as necessary until they have proven identity etc without the huge costs of doing so in the UK and without the risk of them disappearing into the black market. Both our schemes would have a huge effect on the economic migrants escaping poverty in Albania and the Sudan. As they would face a permanent life in a refugee camp, never reaching the promised land. One unfortunate side effect would probably be that the people smugglers would try to smuggle people into the country rather than leave them halfway across the channel to be collected. The discussion is getting into the detaily area so let me address some of your points. If someone is significantly deterred by barracks accommodation and a lack of wifi, then their plight is not very severe. Bear in mind we don't want a lot of applicants, we only want people who are in the sort of real trouble that would make a leaky tent on a windy hillside an inviting proposition. We can't afford to accommodate everyone who feels their situation is inadequate because that's most of the world's population. On your second point regarding smuggling - I think this is economics. Because someone can no longer remain in the UK by making a claim, smuggling them into the UK is significantly reduced in value. Getting people into the UK is suddenly not the ';problem solved' situation it once was. However, if the accommodations are suitably inviting, the value proposition can be swung back up. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 16:18:36 GMT
I know some people are still moaning about multiculturalism that happened 30 years ago. Multiculturalism is an absolute myth, it does not work. It undermines national unity and social integration, it fragments society into ethnic factions and creates ghettoes. Areas that are mainly black or Asian are hailed as wonderfully multicultural and diverse, yet areas that are mainly white are said to be not very multicultural or diverse. In every country, notably western countries, where multiculturalism has been tried it has caused and continues to cause huge problems because locals do want their communities flooded with strangers who do not share their beliefs values or way of life and few will be surprised to hear that immigrants do not integrate, they colonise areas which breeds resentment. Multiculturalism is an absolute myth. It's basically politically correct genocide. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2023 16:35:59 GMT
Small Boat Arrivals Year Arrivals (% change from prior year) 2018 299 2019 1,843(+516.4%) 2020 8,466(+359.3%) 2021 28,526(+236.9%) 2022 45,755(+60.4%) 2023 11,433(As of 4 July 2023) In England and Wales, a total of 40,572 women were victims of sexual assault in the year ending September 2021. Why does it appear asylum seekers crossing the channel is a bigger 'story' in this country than sexual assaults on women? Strawman. A strawman with facts. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 12, 2023 16:41:18 GMT
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Post by zanygame on Jul 12, 2023 16:51:29 GMT
In my opinion your punishment centres have only one purpose, to force people to return home so that only the very worst most desperate cases come. This runs a high risk of those deciding to stay and ending up dead. By allowing anyone to come to a safe place and apply, it enables you to hold people for as long as necessary until they have proven identity etc without the huge costs of doing so in the UK and without the risk of them disappearing into the black market. Both our schemes would have a huge effect on the economic migrants escaping poverty in Albania and the Sudan. As they would face a permanent life in a refugee camp, never reaching the promised land. One unfortunate side effect would probably be that the people smugglers would try to smuggle people into the country rather than leave them halfway across the channel to be collected. The discussion is getting into the detaily area so let me address some of your points. If someone is significantly deterred by barracks accommodation and a lack of wifi, then their plight is not very severe. Bear in mind we don't want a lot of applicants, we only want people who are in the sort of real trouble that would make a leaky tent on a windy hillside an inviting proposition. We can't afford to accommodate everyone who feels their situation is inadequate because that's most of the world's population. On your second point regarding smuggling - I think this is economics. Because someone can no longer remain in the UK by making a claim, smuggling them into the UK is significantly reduced in value. Getting people into the UK is suddenly not the ';problem solved' situation it once was. However, if the accommodations are suitably inviting, the value proposition can be swung back up. I see no real reason to be cruel to stop economic migrants. Barrack type accommodation sounds OK until you consider families. Do you separate husbands and wives, parents and children? If not, do you put a family with a sixteen year old daughter in a dormitory with teenage boys in it. Rape and violence are big issues in the refugee camps around Turkeys border. I think we are better than that. Don't forget that if someone fails the processing they would be kicked out of the camp. To refine this I would say someone who lies or deliberately delays the processing by refusing to give information should automatically fail. On the economics. If I am a Algerian teenager with no prospects and no future who's family are willing to cobble together the money to pay the people smugglers then they are going to choose those who can fulfil the promise. By default those who only get you into the English channel will not get hired, so a new group who offer to get you into the UK in secret will take over. From my limited research it seems many of the Algerian "Asylum seekers" merely use the asylum claim to get across our border and into a hotel. At that point they simply disappear into the black or drugs economy. These are the ones I was referring to when I spoke of the side effects. |
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Post by zanygame on Jul 12, 2023 16:54:17 GMT
You are not comparing the same thing I am. But in answer to your question, they entered Poland illegally when they fled across the border. All that was different was the attitude when they got there. ...and the border they crossed in from. Ukraine was clearly in a crisis and is bordering Poland. The refugee convention is specifically designed to allow this sort of movement. It wasn't designed to facilitate people'fleeing' from safe countries. Its been said so many times its got boring, but the refugee convention does not say where you must stop and ask for asylum when fleeing persecution or war. You may travel through as many countries as you wish until you feel safe. That this is misused cannot be in doubt, but it is the case. |
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Post by Orac on Jul 12, 2023 17:04:02 GMT
...and the border they crossed in from. Ukraine was clearly in a crisis and is bordering Poland. The refugee convention is specifically designed to allow this sort of movement. It wasn't designed to facilitate people'fleeing' from safe countries. Its been said so many times its got boring, but the refugee convention does not say where you must stop and ask for asylum when fleeing persecution or war. You may travel through as many countries as you wish until you feel safe. That this is misused cannot be in doubt, but it is the case. I know this is side-issue to the overwhelming the moral one - ie the gigantic fraud that is taking place and how it is encouraged - but you are technically incorrect. The Refugee convention does not give people the legal right to breach any border they see fit. The special 'border crossing powers' are limited only to escaping specific (specified) places of danger - ie crossing the borders of that country. |
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