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Post by Einhorn on Jul 9, 2023 8:18:07 GMT
It's all fairly simple when you understand the basic framework, gnome. You really should stop posting disinformation. But that's just it, he doesn't. And he's in a delusional federalist cult. You're a unionist, Iggy! They don't come any more federalist than you!  |
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Post by Einhorn on Jul 9, 2023 8:20:10 GMT
The Europhiles believe in a form of fascism. Says the bloke who wants Farage the Putin enabler to receive a knighthood. |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2023 8:26:50 GMT
EU membership was a mistake.
It royally fucked up manufacturing in the UK.
No going back. No rejoining the racist single market and its absurd freedom of movement of mostly white European Union member state citizens.
Keep out of it. Keep our independent trade arrangements.
Have immigration rules based on who the individual is, and what they can do, not based on some racist vision of preferential passports. We can't take everyone who wants to live here, but we can take the odd skilled doctor or engineer.
Doesn't matter where from so long as they have useful skills that aren't easy to train.
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Post by Einhorn on Jul 9, 2023 8:32:40 GMT
. No going back. No rejoining the racist single market and its absurd freedom of movement of mostly white European Union member state citizens. . The union in the UK must also be racist, then, because that allows freedom of movement between Welsh, Irish, Scottish, and English. By your own reasoning, your unionism makes you a racist |
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Post by Vinny on Jul 9, 2023 9:12:46 GMT
No idea what rubbish the Eurotroll has come out with now, but stay on ignore it will.
The only valid questions regarding economic immigration are, "who are you?" "what can you do?" and "do you have a criminal record in your home country?"
Freedom of movement asks instead, do you have an EU / EEA member state passport? If yes, come in.
That, is racist. Under the EU system, immigrants are not judged on their merits they're judged on their nationalities.
Fuck racism.
Fuck the EU and its cult.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 10, 2023 7:10:47 GMT
Gnome said: "And another thing that you clearly are overwhelmed by is the fact that getting access to the Single Market can be done through various ways. At the moment, three ways. One, be a member of the EU. Two, sign an agreement that specifies access to the Single Market like what the EEA have done. And three, do the Swiss Manoeuvre -- go for sectoral agreements. That is, if you can persuade the EU to agree to it."
You just don't understand what the Single Market is. Someone said that the SM is the "beating heart of the EU". It creates an area with no internal borders and in which there is free movement of goods, persons, services and capital - and it comes with a raft of legislation that effectively creates a European Superstate.
As such it's obviously not suitable for most of countries in the world. You can't expect, for example, the USA to sign a trade deal that involves joining the SM. So most countries that have trade agreements with the EU do it via bilateral deals. These deals allow "access" to various sectors of the SM but they're custom deals and do NOT involve being part of the SM. Switzerland has many of these bilateral agreements - over 100 at last count - and they don't cover "persons, services or capital". Countries that trade via bilateral deals are, of course, free to make their own trade deals with other countries.
Those countries that are actual members of the SM (i.e. EU members and EEA members) do NOT have bilateral deals with the EU. They trade via the rules of the SM. And they cannot make their own FTAs. Any trade deals they make are made by the EU or EFTA and are under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The UK is not a member of the SM and therefore can make its own trade deals. We trade with the EU via a single overarching deal called the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation agreement.
So your statement that "Switzerland is part of the EU SM. You can not argue against it. You just can't" is nonsense. Switzerland has agreed to NO part of the SM regulations. Its agreements with the EU are entirely "custom". Until you've grasped this fact you'll never understand what's going on. It's that fundamental.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 10, 2023 7:30:08 GMT
They are a cult.
Facts mean nothing to cultists.
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Post by oracle75 on Jul 10, 2023 8:28:33 GMT
Gnome said: " And another thing that you clearly are overwhelmed by is the fact that getting access to the Single Market can be done through various ways. At the moment, three ways. One, be a member of the EU. Two, sign an agreement that specifies access to the Single Market like what the EEA have done. And three, do the Swiss Manoeuvre -- go for sectoral agreements. That is, if you can persuade the EU to agree to it." You just don't understand what the Single Market is. Someone said that the SM is the "beating heart of the EU". It creates an area with no internal borders and in which there is free movement of goods, persons, services and capital - and it comes with a raft of legislation that effectively creates a European Superstate. As such it's obviously not suitable for most of countries in the world. You can't expect, for example, the USA to sign a trade deal that involves joining the SM. So most countries that have trade agreements with the EU do it via bilateral deals. These deals allow "access" to various sectors of the SM but they're custom deals and do NOT involve being part of the SM. Switzerland has many of these bilateral agreements - over 100 at last count - and they don't cover "persons, services or capital". Countries that trade via bilateral deals are, of course, free to make their own trade deals with other countries. Those countries that are actual members of the SM (i.e. EU members and EEA members) do NOT have bilateral deals with the EU. They trade via the rules of the SM. And they cannot make their own FTAs. Any trade deals they make are made by the EU or EFTA and are under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The UK is not a member of the SM and therefore can make its own trade deals. We trade with the EU via a single overarching deal called the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation agreement. So your statement that " Switzerland is part of the EU SM. You can not argue against it. You just can't" is nonsense. Switzerland has agreed to NO part of the SM regulations. Its agreements with the EU are entirely "custom". Until you've grasped this fact you'll never understand what's going on. It's that fundamental. In the spirit of precision you offer, you completely forget to mention that any and every trade deal proposed by the EU must be approved by the democratically elected head of state of every EU member. The Swiss constitition prevents the collegiate government from making a range of agreements which affect the wholesale membership of the SM. However Switzerland operates AS IF it it is a full member including freedom of movement and is part of the Schengen agreement. Switzerland is not a member state of the European Union (EU). It is associated with the Union through a series of bilateral treaties in which Switzerland has adopted various provisions of European Union law in order to participate in the Union's single market, without joining as a member state. en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki Switzerland–European Union relations - Wikipedia |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 10:06:04 GMT
Gnome said: " And another thing that you clearly are overwhelmed by is the fact that getting access to the Single Market can be done through various ways. At the moment, three ways. One, be a member of the EU. Two, sign an agreement that specifies access to the Single Market like what the EEA have done. And three, do the Swiss Manoeuvre -- go for sectoral agreements. That is, if you can persuade the EU to agree to it." You just don't understand what the Single Market is. Someone said that the SM is the "beating heart of the EU". It creates an area with no internal borders and in which there is free movement of goods, persons, services and capital - and it comes with a raft of legislation that effectively creates a European Superstate. As such it's obviously not suitable for most of countries in the world. You can't expect, for example, the USA to sign a trade deal that involves joining the SM. So most countries that have trade agreements with the EU do it via bilateral deals. These deals allow "access" to various sectors of the SM but they're custom deals and do NOT involve being part of the SM. Switzerland has many of these bilateral agreements - over 100 at last count - and they don't cover "persons, services or capital". Countries that trade via bilateral deals are, of course, free to make their own trade deals with other countries. Those countries that are actual members of the SM (i.e. EU members and EEA members) do NOT have bilateral deals with the EU. They trade via the rules of the SM. And they cannot make their own FTAs. Any trade deals they make are made by the EU or EFTA and are under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The UK is not a member of the SM and therefore can make its own trade deals. We trade with the EU via a single overarching deal called the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation agreement. So your statement that " Switzerland is part of the EU SM. You can not argue against it. You just can't" is nonsense. Switzerland has agreed to NO part of the SM regulations. Its agreements with the EU are entirely "custom". Until you've grasped this fact you'll never understand what's going on. It's that fundamental. Switzerland, in principle and in practice, is part of the EU Single Market. It agrees to and enjoys the four freedoms of the SM. It pays into the EU budget. It participates in EU programmes. It follows relevant EU rules. This is all made possible by Switzerland's bilateral deals with the EU. Those ^ facts are established, undeniable; they are not debatable, are not subject to further interpretation or argument. You may write hundreds of dissertations reinterpreting the EU-Swiss agreements but you can never defend them. It's really very basic. All you have to do is start with a bit of common sense and abduction: if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck? It is most probably a duck. In Switzerland's case, it IS a duck. Switzerland's agreements are entirely custom made. Exactly! They're sectoral agreements -- applicable to selected sectors and industries of the Swiss economy -- custom made for Switzerland. Bespoke. Made to measure. Flexible. Selective. All these sectoral agreements contain the 4 freedoms of the SM. Three of the four are intrinsic to the agreements; the 4th -- freedom of movement of people -- is specified in Bilaterals I as per the link I gave you. Your problem is that you refuse to accept that "sectoral" participation in the EU SM is and means, nonetheless, participation in the SM. You fail to see that these custom made treaties are Switzerland's way of participating in the EU SM. You persist with this idea that you have to be in the EU to be in the Single Market despite facts telling you that twenty seven countries participate in the SM as EU members; three countries, by way of a trade agreement containing the 4 freedoms; and 1 country -- Switzerland -- does it by way of its Sectoral agreements or bilateral treaties. Here, from the European Commission website -- you're free to waste your time and effort refuting it and reinterpreting it: The Single Market Scoreboard:
The single market consists of 31 countries’ economies. First, it includes all 27 EU Member States. Second, through the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA) and with certain exceptions, it includes Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. Third, through bilateral treaties, Switzerland is also part of it. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 10, 2023 13:05:18 GMT
Gnome said: " And another thing that you clearly are overwhelmed by is the fact that getting access to the Single Market can be done through various ways. At the moment, three ways. One, be a member of the EU. Two, sign an agreement that specifies access to the Single Market like what the EEA have done. And three, do the Swiss Manoeuvre -- go for sectoral agreements. That is, if you can persuade the EU to agree to it." You just don't understand what the Single Market is. Someone said that the SM is the "beating heart of the EU". It creates an area with no internal borders and in which there is free movement of goods, persons, services and capital - and it comes with a raft of legislation that effectively creates a European Superstate. As such it's obviously not suitable for most of countries in the world. You can't expect, for example, the USA to sign a trade deal that involves joining the SM. So most countries that have trade agreements with the EU do it via bilateral deals. These deals allow "access" to various sectors of the SM but they're custom deals and do NOT involve being part of the SM. Switzerland has many of these bilateral agreements - over 100 at last count - and they don't cover "persons, services or capital". Countries that trade via bilateral deals are, of course, free to make their own trade deals with other countries. Those countries that are actual members of the SM (i.e. EU members and EEA members) do NOT have bilateral deals with the EU. They trade via the rules of the SM. And they cannot make their own FTAs. Any trade deals they make are made by the EU or EFTA and are under the jurisdiction of the ECJ. The UK is not a member of the SM and therefore can make its own trade deals. We trade with the EU via a single overarching deal called the EU/UK Trade and Cooperation agreement. So your statement that " Switzerland is part of the EU SM. You can not argue against it. You just can't" is nonsense. Switzerland has agreed to NO part of the SM regulations. Its agreements with the EU are entirely "custom". Until you've grasped this fact you'll never understand what's going on. It's that fundamental. 1. In the spirit of precision you offer, you completely forget to mention that any and every trade deal proposed by the EU must be approved by the democratically elected head of state of every EU member. 2. The Swiss constitition prevents the collegiate government from making a range of agreements which affect the wholesale membership of the SM. However Switzerland operates AS IF it it is a full member including freedom of movement and is part of the Schengen agreement. 3. Switzerland is not a member state of the European Union (EU). It is associated with the Union through a series of bilateral treaties in which Switzerland has adopted various provisions of European Union law in order to participate in the Union's single market, without joining as a member state. en.m.wikipedia.org › wiki Switzerland–European Union relations - Wikipedia !. That's true. But I never said anything to contradict that. 2. The first bit is true in that the Swiss Constitution limits what the Swiss govt can do without the agreement of the public. That's why they had a referendum - and lost. But Switzerland is a "third country" just as we are. The fact that its trade is virtually frictionless is because the EU "cooperates" with Switzerland - unlike its deliberate attempts to disrupt trade with the UK. But it does not accept the FoM agreement of the EU single market. FFS read the agreement. And I've nevr said that it wasn't in Schengen. 3. And you're wrong about its adoption of "various provisions of EU law in order to participate in the EU's SM". It trades via bilateral deals - just like many other third countries. Why don't you people just study the facts instead of posting nonsense. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 10, 2023 13:10:23 GMT
gnome said: "Switzerland, in principle and in practice, is part of the EU Single Market. It agrees to and enjoys the four freedoms of the SM. It pays into the EU budget."
Wrong on ever count. Switzerland is not "part of the SM". It does NOT agree to 4 freedoms of the SM. And it does NOT pay into the EU "budget".
I didn't bother to read any further. You haven't got a clue, gnome. But of course you haven't.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2023 14:01:56 GMT
gnome said: " Switzerland, in principle and in practice, is part of the EU Single Market. It agrees to and enjoys the four freedoms of the SM. It pays into the EU budget." Wrong on ever count. Switzerland is not "part of the SM". It does NOT agree to 4 freedoms of the SM. And it does NOT pay into the EU "budget". I didn't bother to read any further. You haven't got a clue, gnome. But of course you haven't. ^  Here, from the European Commission website. It says 31 countries. You do the maths -- I have to assume you can at least do simple maths.: single-market-scoreboard.ec.europa.eu/The Single Market Scoreboard:
The single market consists of 31 countries’ economies. First, it includes all 27 EU Member States. Second, through the Agreement on the European Economic Area (EEA) and with certain exceptions, it includes Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway. Third, through bilateral treaties, Switzerland is also part of it.
The single market guarantees the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour/people, known as the “four freedoms”, enshrined in the EU treaties.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jul 11, 2023 5:59:32 GMT
You'll notice that it says that Switzerland is "part of it through bilateral treaties". So it separates Switzerland from EU and EEA members. It's just an example of loose wording. SWitzerland has partial access to the SM via bilateral deals. So do a lot of other countries, such as Albania for example.
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Post by Vinny on Jul 11, 2023 6:35:22 GMT
We have access to the Single Market via a free trade agreement which is a deeper more comprehensive trade agreement than the Swiss enjoy, and we're selling more to the EU than we did prior to the referendum.
Project fear was absolute bollocks.
People who didn't want a democratic vote in the first place and wouldn't have offered another if they had won, now want from us, what they wouldn't offer us in a million years. They are fascists. They don't believe in democracy. They believe in autocracy and oligarchy. They'd happily have ushered in the destruction of the UK for Brussels, without a vote.
They want us paying £20+ billion a year to be inside an economic strait jacket.
We can remember being members. It didn't work. It simply ravaged our industries.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2023 6:37:49 GMT
You'll notice that it says that Switzerland is "part of it through bilateral treaties". So it separates Switzerland from EU and EEA members. It's just an example of loose wording. SWitzerland has partial access to the SM via bilateral deals. So do a lot of other countries, such as Albania for example. Oh, now it's loose wording!  Partial participation IS participation. Switzerland is part of the Single Market via its bilateral deals. It is a fact. Established. Generally accepted. Non debatable. Not subject to your interpretation and/or reinterpretation. The EU says it. The EU tells you that. The EU always counts Switzerland as a Single Market participant. Give it a rest. |
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