Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 3, 2023 17:37:41 GMT
We should have the courage and the strength of character to look at a Norway-style relationship with the European Union? Yes, that too. -------------- www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/we-must-admit-brexit-is-a-mistake-and-rejoin-the-single-market-says-senior-tory-tobias-ellwood/ar-AA1dnbv9?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=000b4ae58c9d439184c8a9f69034401a&ei=18We must admit Brexit is a mistake and rejoin the single market, says senior Tory Tobias Ellwood
Story by Andrew Johnson • 3h ago A senior Tory has called for both main parties to show the courage and strength of character to admit that Brexit has failed and seek to rejoin the EU single market. Tobias Ellwood, Conservative chairman of the defence select committee, said many MPs privately agree with the case for a Norway-style relationship with the EU but are too scared to say so. Ellwood was an early and prominent critic of Brexit, and among the first Conservatives to call for Boris Johnson to quit and remains the only Tory MP to publicly call for the UK to consider rejoining the single market. He praised Rishi Sunak for showing “statecraft” for getting the Windsor Framework on trading arrangements with Northern Ireland through and says that he believes he can lead the Tories to victory at the next election – but only if he’s given the chance by Johnson’s allies. For Ellwood Brexit has become the issue that dare not speak its name. “Nobody dares mention Brexit on the Labour or Conservative side or look at the numbers to see whether economically it would be wiser for us to be in or outside of the single market,” he says. “Surely we should have that strength of character, the courage to look at the biggest generational decision which is now clearly not gone in the right direction. I didn’t know anybody who voted Remain or Brexit, who expected us to be where we are today, but we dare not go there.” In addition to the economic damage he said leaving the single market has caused, he said Breixt has left the UK isolated from its allies just as the world is becoming more dangerous.
Ben Wallace, the defence secretary, failed in his bid to become the new Nato secretary general because the UK is no longer in the EU, he claims.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 3, 2023 19:04:45 GMT
Stop living in the past, it's fucking boring.
|
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Jul 3, 2023 21:55:14 GMT
wonder why that is?  |
|
|
|
Post by wapentake on Jul 3, 2023 22:26:22 GMT
As the old saying goes there’s no place like gnome
and ours isn’t in the eu.
|
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Jul 4, 2023 6:11:20 GMT
Tobias Ellwood has never understood what the EU is, or the Single Market. You can't just join the Single Market - it comes with a lot of other baggage like FoM etc. What Ellwood is talking about is basically joining the EEA, which was considered at one time but rejected because it's basically the "EU lite". It leaves out the customs union and CAP and CFP (which is good) but you still have to pay nearly as much into the EU budget, but have no MEPs and no voting rights. So it's taxation without representation. You also don't have the right to negotiate your own trade deals - you have to go through EFTA which uses the same jurisprudence as the EU. Joining the EEA is more of a precursor to joining the EU than a way of leaving the EU.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 4, 2023 6:23:21 GMT
Most of what you say is correct, but members of EFTA can negotiate their own free trade agreements as EFTA has no customs union.
Even so, the EEA agreement incorporates freedom of movement and absurd budget contributions to the EU. No need for it as we have a more comprehensive FTA than the EFTA countries do. And, passporting of financial services is not part of the EEA agreement anyway. So the remoaners are clutching at straws not knowing what they're talking about.
They're floundering, looking backwards to the failures of the past instead of the successes of the present.
|
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Jul 5, 2023 6:28:18 GMT
Most of what you say is correct, but members of EFTA can negotiate their own free trade agreements as EFTA has no customs union. No, they can't negotiate their own FTAs. They have to be done via EFTA which is subject to the authority (jurisprudence) of the ECJ. Basically EEA members are members of the Single Market so they have to agree to all EU rules/laws in order to protect the integrity of the internal market. They obviously can't be free to negotiate their own FTAs. They have to be done through EFTA and they're ultimately subject to the ECJ. The UK could never agree to that. That's also why Switzerland rejected EEA membership and why Switzerland is not in the Single Market - despite lots of misinformation on the internet that it is. That's the whole problem with people like Tobias Ellwood talking about the UK joining the Single Market. When you join the SM you become subject to a huge amount of EU legislation. |
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2023 6:57:29 GMT
Switzerland has it's own FTAs, EFTA is not a customs union.
Norway Iceland and Liechtenstein choose to negotiate free trade agreements together as EFTA but they do not have to. They can bilaterally negotiate if they want.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2023 7:06:31 GMT
From the Norwegian website, Regjeringen.no:
Norway negotiates free trade agreements with other countries through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA).
From the International Trade Administration:
Norway and other members of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) - Iceland, Liechtenstein and Switzerland - have jointly concluded 30 free trade agreements since the early 1990s. These include Albania, Bosnia-Hercegovina, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Central American States (Costa Rica, Guatemala, and Panama), Ecuador, Egypt, Georgia, Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC), Hong Kong - China, Indonesia, Israel, Jordan, Republic of Korea, Lebanon, Macedonia, Mexico, Montenegro, Morocco, North Macedonia, Palestinian Authority, Peru, Philippines, Serbia, Singapore, Southern African Customs Union, Tunisia, Turkey, UK, and Ukraine. The agreements cover trade in goods and services, services and investment, dispute settlement and other issues generally found in bilateral investment accords.
Norway is currently negotiation free trade agreements with the People’s Republic of China, India, Malaysia, Moldova, Mercosur, and Vietnam.
And apparently, EFTA jurisprudence is not subject to ECJ although based on EU laws.
|
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 5, 2023 8:09:15 GMT
wonder why that is? Brexit is a success, our exports to the EU are worth far more than they were before our membership referendum. |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Jul 6, 2023 7:23:18 GMT
Switzerland has it's own FTAs, EFTA is not a customs union. Norway Iceland and Liechtenstein choose to negotiate free trade agreements together as EFTA but they do not have to. They can bilaterally negotiate if they want. I'm well aware that EFTA is not a Customs Union. EFTA is a group of countries that collectively negotiate trade agreements, which is an entirely different thing. As I've said many times Switzerland negotiates its own trade arrangements via bilateral agreements - it has over 100 agreements in various sectors. But Switzerland is not a member of the EEA and is not a member of the Single Market. They had a referendum on these issues in the '90s and the Swiss people rejected the EEA and SM. EEA members who ARE in the Single Market cannot negotiate their own bilateral agreements like Switzerland can because they're in the Single Market. And if there's one thing that the EU jealously guards it's the integrity of the SM and they don't allow members to negotiate their own free trade because that would obviously compromise that integrity. And deals that are made have to be made via EFTA and they follow the jurisprudence of the ECJ. In other words everything they agree has to be agreed by the ECJ. There are some basic principles to the structure of the EU. You cannot be in the internal market and negotiate your own trade deals. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2023 12:44:01 GMT
Switzerland has it's own FTAs, EFTA is not a customs union. Norway Iceland and Liechtenstein choose to negotiate free trade agreements together as EFTA but they do not have to. They can bilaterally negotiate if they want. I'm well aware that EFTA is not a Customs Union. EFTA is a group of countries that collectively negotiate trade agreements, which is an entirely different thing. As I've said many times Switzerland negotiates its own trade arrangements via bilateral agreements - it has over 100 agreements in various sectors. But Switzerland is not a member of the EEA and is not a member of the Single Market. They had a referendum on these issues in the '90s and the Swiss people rejected the EEA and SM. EEA members who ARE in the Single Market cannot negotiate their own bilateral agreements like Switzerland can because they're in the Single Market. And if there's one thing that the EU jealously guards it's the integrity of the SM and they don't allow members to negotiate their own free trade because that would obviously compromise that integrity. And deals that are made have to be made via EFTA and they follow the jurisprudence of the ECJ. In other words everything they agree has to be agreed by the ECJ. There are some basic principles to the structure of the EU. You cannot be in the internal market and negotiate your own trade deals. From http://www.gov.uk: "Switzerland is not an EU or EEA member but is part of the single market." Its participation in the Single Market is made possible by their bilateral deals with the EU. Switzerland got away with this arrangment and the EU has been wishing to restructure these deals. It is the Customs Union that disallows its members to negotiate any trade agreements. Not the Single Market. The Single Market is internal to the EU and non-EU members. Turkey is a member of the Customs Union but not the Single Market, so although they, in actual fact, carry out the negotiations, this is all in parallel with the EU. That is, Turkey can not impose its own tariff rates or quotas or standards even. |
|
|
|
Post by steppenwolf on Jul 7, 2023 6:58:50 GMT
We've been through this before gnome. Switzerland is NOT part of the Single Market. If it were it would not need any of its bilateral deals with the EU. Use your brain if you have one. Membership of the Single Market means that you surrender all powers to make trade deals for the simple reason that all trade deals have to be made by the EU or EFTA (if you're in the EEA). Otherwise it would be a route for goods that are non-compliant with EU rules into the Single Market.
Your statement that "The Single Market is internal to the EU and non-EU members" is complete nonsense. You simply haven't got a clue what you're talking about. As I've said before I suggest you do a bit of concentrated study on what the EU is - you might then change your mind about wanting to be a member.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2023 7:51:30 GMT
We've been through this before gnome. Switzerland is NOT part of the Single Market. If it were it would not need any of its bilateral deals with the EU. Use your brain if you have one. Membership of the Single Market means that you surrender all powers to make trade deals for the simple reason that all trade deals have to be made by the EU or EFTA (if you're in the EEA). Otherwise it would be a route for goods that are non-compliant with EU rules into the Single Market. Your statement that "The Single Market is internal to the EU and non-EU members" is complete nonsense. You simply haven't got a clue what you're talking about. As I've said before I suggest you do a bit of concentrated study on what the EU is - you might then change your mind about wanting to be a member. Yes. It is part of the Single Market. You may moan and groan about HOW it got to be part of part of the Single Market but it is non-debatable that Switzerland is, in fact, part of the Single Market. Well done, the Swiss!!! Got in via bilateral deals. |
|
|
|
Post by Vinny on Jul 7, 2023 8:43:55 GMT
Admit that remoaning was a mistake. Brexit is working.
The UK economy is growing.
|
|
