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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 12, 2023 13:08:19 GMT
It's about time someone said this. I've been reminded of it because so many people have said that one of things Boris got right is our support of Ukraine (costing many billions). Boris got a lot right but this was one he got wrong. The EU has been constantly provoking Putin over many years by its extension of its "empire" (and NATO) to the east. It was only a matter of time until Putin reacted - and this has been forecast for years, since long before even Russia's annexation of Crimea. It's been obvious for decades that, far from the EU being a peace keeping force in Europe, the next war in Europe would be CAUSED by the EU. And so it has turned out.
This should have been one of the Brexit bonuses - like not contributing to the EU's £200 billin covid fund. The UK should have just told the EU that it's their problem - sort it. Unfortunately Boris chose to grandstand. That was stupid. He's just made the UK a major target for Russia and chosen to fund a proxy war with Russia that Ukraine can never win. It has to be a negotiated settlement, so the negotiations should take place before more people die.
It's actually all an American proxy war that we're financing. And the grinning monkey, Rashid Sanuk, has gone along with it. Fucking crazy. But he knows nothing of politics. he's just made a very dangerous enemy in Boris.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 13:49:27 GMT
It's about time someone said this. I've been reminded of it because so many people have said that one of things Boris got right is our support of Ukraine (costing many billions). Boris got a lot right but this was one he got wrong. The EU has been constantly provoking Putin over many years by its extension of its "empire" (and NATO) to the east. It was only a matter of time until Putin reacted - and this has been forecast for years, since long before even Russia's annexation of Crimea. It's been obvious for decades that, far from the EU being a peace keeping force in Europe, the next war in Europe would be CAUSED by the EU. And so it has turned out. This should have been one of the Brexit bonuses. The UK should have just told the EU that it's their problem - sort it. Unfortunately Boris chose to granstand. That wa stupid. He's just made the UK a major target for Russia and chosen to fund a proxy war with Russia that Ukraine can never win. I t's actually all an American proxy war that we're financing. And the grinning monkey, Rashid Sanuk, has gone along with it. Fucking crazy. You make it sound as though Putin was not this megalomaniac dictator hell bent on expanding his Russian empire. Whatever his justifications are, the fact remains that Putin annexed Crimea and then invaded Ukraine. Yes, the UK could have told the EU that they were on their own and stayed neutral. But we couldn't afford to take that neutral stance since Brexit forced the UK into a position where it had to stand with the US in order for the UK to, hopefully, recoup what it had lost economically (by leaving the EU) with a supposedly massive trade deal with the US. |
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Post by Vinny on Jun 12, 2023 13:54:27 GMT
Ukraine has been under attack since 2004.
First Putin poisoned Yuschenko.
Then he tried vote rigging to get Yanukovych in as his puppet.
Then he stole Donetsk Luhansk and Crimea with mercenaries and soldiers.
Then he launched full scale invasion.
Even now, EU countries are sending him money for oil and gas.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 12, 2023 14:03:20 GMT
Bollocks. It must have been obvious to even the EU that Putin was and unstable character. But Putin is justifiably worried by EU imperialism so the EU should have avoided war by diplomacy. Instead they just provoked him by threatening to extend the grip of NATO. The outcome was inevitable.
And the stance we should have taken is that of a peace broker. No one can "win" this war. Our position as independent from the EU gives us a great opportunity, which we lost. As for the USA, they're equally to blame. Biden was so feeble about his response to an incursion into Ukraine that it basically invited Russia in. This war would NEVER have happened if Trump were president.
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Post by wapentake on Jun 12, 2023 14:04:35 GMT
This is not correct,first you blame the eu then the Americans,facts are when the soviet union fell and negotiations around that time Gorbachev confirmed there were no guarantees on nato and the eu was not mentioned.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 12, 2023 14:27:11 GMT
Bollocks. It must have been obvious to even the EU that Putin was and unstable character. But Putin is justifiably worried by EU imperialism so the EU should have avoided war by diplomacy. Instead they just provoked him by threatening to extend the grip of NATO. The outcome was inevitable. And the stance we should have taken is that of a peace broker. No one can "win" this war. Our position as independent from the EU gives us a great opportunity, which we lost. As for the USA, they're equally to blame. Biden was so feeble about his response to an incursion into Ukraine that it basically invited Russia in. This war would NEVER have happened if Trump were president.This ^ is so big on the would've, could've, should've but zero on the is, was, were, will. Whatever anyone's position is on American intervention, the fact remains that Putin actively started the entire mess. How could we have been or how can we be a peace broker? We can't afford it. The US once again inserted itself where it's not needed nor wanted, but unfortunately, we need to be on their side because we must have a trade deal with them to recoup substantially what we've lost from Brexiting the EU. Lis Truss' trade deals equal zero economic benefit so we're stuck having to chase the US for something substantial. And when you want something from Washington, you need to demonstrate to them that you are completely allied with them. Yes, Trump would have also glossed over Putin's actions in Crimea and now Ukraine with would've, could've, should've. |
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Post by Vinny on Jun 12, 2023 19:21:17 GMT
The EU kept funding him by buying his oil and gas and coal whilst legislating to shut down local production of oil gas and coal in member states.
They basically handed him their chequebook and he said thank you very much.
Being an imperialist bastard, he used the money to destabilise and invade Ukraine.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 13, 2023 12:11:32 GMT
Bollocks. It must have been obvious to even the EU that Putin was and unstable character. But Putin is justifiably worried by EU imperialism so the EU should have avoided war by diplomacy. Instead they just provoked him by threatening to extend the grip of NATO. The outcome was inevitable. And the stance we should have taken is that of a peace broker. No one can "win" this war. Our position as independent from the EU gives us a great opportunity, which we lost. As for the USA, they're equally to blame. Biden was so feeble about his response to an incursion into Ukraine that it basically invited Russia in. This war would NEVER have happened if Trump were president. This ^ is so big on the would've, could've, should've but zero on the is, was, were, will. Whatever anyone's position is on American intervention, the fact remains that Putin actively started the entire mess. How could we have been or how can we be a peace broker? We can't afford it. The US once again inserted itself where it's not needed nor wanted, but unfortunately, we need to be on their side because we must have a trade deal with them to recoup substantially what we've lost from Brexiting the EU. Lis Truss' trade deals equal zero economic benefit so we're stuck having to chase the US for something substantial. And when you want something from Washington, you need to demonstrate to them that you are completely allied with them. Yes, Trump would have also glossed over Putin's actions in Crimea and now Ukraine with would've, could've, should've. You're a total numpty gnome. So we can't afford to broker peace but can afford to spend billions on supplying arms for an indefinite war with Russia. Twat It's pure deflection. It's been obvious for years that, while the EU was being lauded for keeping the peace in Europe, it would be the EU that created the conditions for the next war. And so it has proved. As with all political projects the EU has just wanted more and more power - it always happens. They're now even more dangerous than Putin. The weird thing is that absolutely NOBODY says this. The Lefty Remain Establishment have taken over in Britain. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2023 13:41:22 GMT
This ^ is so big on the would've, could've, should've but zero on the is, was, were, will. Whatever anyone's position is on American intervention, the fact remains that Putin actively started the entire mess. How could we have been or how can we be a peace broker? We can't afford it. The US once again inserted itself where it's not needed nor wanted, but unfortunately, we need to be on their side because we must have a trade deal with them to recoup substantially what we've lost from Brexiting the EU. Lis Truss' trade deals equal zero economic benefit so we're stuck having to chase the US for something substantial. And when you want something from Washington, you need to demonstrate to them that you are completely allied with them. Yes, Trump would have also glossed over Putin's actions in Crimea and now Ukraine with would've, could've, should've. You're a total numpty gnome. So we can't afford to broker peace but can afford to spend billions on supplying arms for an indefinite war with Russia. Twat It's pure deflection. It's been obvious for years that, while the EU was being lauded for keeping the peace in Europe, it would be the EU that created the conditions for the next war. And so it has proved. As with all political projects the EU has just wanted more and more power - it always happens. They're now even more dangerous than Putin. The weird thing is that absolutely NOBODY says this. The Lefty Remain Establishment have taken over in Britain. The term "afford" pertains not to the money that we have spent so far, but to the loss of our alliance and "special relationship" with the United States -- and ultimately the much needed US-UK trade deal -- if we don't take their side; Einstein! We can not afford to be goody-goody peace broker because playing that role would mean taking the neutral position which would entail moving away from the American position which would mean straining our "one-way special relationship" with them which would ultimately mean no US-UK trade deal leading to a completely stalled UK economy. We can't take the neutral position and be a peace broker. It is a Brexit imperative. We must stay on the side of the Americans. If we don't then we lose the last substantial trade deal that may help recoup the economic hit from Brexit. |
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Post by Vinny on Jun 13, 2023 16:04:15 GMT
There can be no peace negotiations with Putin.
Any ceasefire would be used as an opportunity to dig in, consolidate his grip over the occupied territories and rearm for the next phase.
Only total defeat of Putin can bring peace.
For too long the EU appeased him.
Their weakness towards him, gave him the encouragement he sought to justify his wars.
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Post by sheepy on Jun 13, 2023 16:26:16 GMT
This ^ is so big on the would've, could've, should've but zero on the is, was, were, will. Whatever anyone's position is on American intervention, the fact remains that Putin actively started the entire mess. How could we have been or how can we be a peace broker? We can't afford it. The US once again inserted itself where it's not needed nor wanted, but unfortunately, we need to be on their side because we must have a trade deal with them to recoup substantially what we've lost from Brexiting the EU. Lis Truss' trade deals equal zero economic benefit so we're stuck having to chase the US for something substantial. And when you want something from Washington, you need to demonstrate to them that you are completely allied with them. Yes, Trump would have also glossed over Putin's actions in Crimea and now Ukraine with would've, could've, should've. You're a total numpty gnome. So we can't afford to broker peace but can afford to spend billions on supplying arms for an indefinite war with Russia. Twat It's pure deflection. It's been obvious for years that, while the EU was being lauded for keeping the peace in Europe, it would be the EU that created the conditions for the next war. And so it has proved. As with all political projects the EU has just wanted more and more power - it always happens. They're now even more dangerous than Putin. The weird thing is that absolutely NOBODY says this. The Lefty Remain Establishment have taken over in Britain. You must be bored, sure enough the usual propaganda will come your way. |
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Post by Dogburger on Jun 14, 2023 6:39:48 GMT
There can be no peace negotiations with Putin. Any ceasefire would be used as an opportunity to dig in, consolidate his grip over the occupied territories and rearm for the next phase. Only total defeat of Putin can bring peace. For too long the EU appeased him. Their weakness towards him, gave him the encouragement he sought to justify his wars. And here lies the problem . Due to the nuclear threat Putin must always be given an escape route where his standing at home is not damaged . On the other hand he must not be allowed to continue his illegal invasion of a soveriegn territory . The muted response from both the EU and the US to Russia's invasion of Georgia gave Putin the green light to move on to Crimea , eastern Ukraine and eventually Ukraine as a whole . Yes the EU appeased Putin , the ceasfire in Georgia ,brokered by Sarkozy was pretty one sided in Russia's favour ,the EU report on the short conflict even blamed Georgia for instigating it ! The West has since the fall of the Berlin wall been attempting to bring Russia into a collective security framework , time and again after Russian aggression the West has reset relations with Putin in attempt to have Russia as a partner rather than an adversary. I guess you can say we have failed . The EU is not to blame anymore than the US or NATO . The West collectivly tried to get Russia onside which Putin saw both as a weakness and an opportunity So we have another reset on Russian relations but this time they must be seen for what they are . A rogue state . Lets all hope the collective response this time will be enough for Putin to think again ,it would have been so much easier and cheaper had the West acted in simlar unity when Putin put the boot into Georgia . |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 14, 2023 7:21:01 GMT
The EU's imperialism has been threatening Russia for a long time. And the EU have been cosying up to Ukraine for a long time with the obvious intent of taking Ukraine into the orbit of the West and out of Russia's sphere of influence. The EU must know that the Russians are very sensitive about Ukraine and a lot of Russians live there. Yet the EU has been provoking Putin for years with the threat of NATO right on their borders. The annexation of Crimea should have been a warning to the EU but they just carried on until the inevitable happened.
Now they're doubling down by granting Ukraine candidate status for accession to the EU. And Finland has joined NATO. The EU has created a major problem for themselves now. Putin is bad person to provoke because he's unstable. How would the USA feel if Russia put a rocket base on CUba. They would be furious.
It was always going to happen that the EU political project would get out of control. The original purpose of the EU was to unite Europe and avoid war but the politicians have got more and more imperialistic over time and it was obvious years ago that the EU are more likely to be the cause of war than a peace keeping force.
Our role has been naive. This is nothing to do with us and because we're out of the EU we could just stand aside and not have to pay into the EU's coffers for all the support that they'll give Ukraine. That would have been a big Brexit bonus. Now we're part of an unwinnable war. Ukraine can never beat Russia because they're a fraction of the size - and if NATO gets involved it will be a disaster. Putin is mad and won't back down. He needed to be given way out.
Putin is dangerous but I think the EU is even more dangerous. It's going to destroy Europe.
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Post by Vinny on Jun 14, 2023 7:29:27 GMT
The EU is protectionist, it operates a common external tariff, but so too does Putin's clone of it, the Eurasian Economic Union. He's been bullying Ukraine in the hope of it joining that.
If Ukraine joins the EU, competitive tendering for the extraction of Ukrainian oil and gas takes place as well as the EU coal divestment policy.
Were it in his EEU, control of Ukrainian fossil fuels would be his. And he wants to trouser the profits.
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Post by steppenwolf on Jun 14, 2023 8:03:36 GMT
Why should we care? We have our own fossil fuels and each country has a right to make any trade alliances it likes. That's why we left the EU.
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