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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2023 22:02:05 GMT
As Winson Churchill said in his famous Zurich speech of 1946, after the end of the Second World War
"if Europe were to be united, in the sharing of its common inheritence, there would be no limit to the happiness, to the prosperity or its glory that its 3 or 4 hundred million people would enjoy"
If Europe can work together, co-operate, if it can be united in its shared values, then what better institution to oversee all of this than the European Union, an organisation dedicated to European nations coming together and working together.
Brexit was merely a setback, but the Brexiteers of 2016, will not win the argument, because in the end, sooner or later, Europe will be united, and the UK will be part of it.
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Post by Vinny on May 26, 2023 22:05:46 GMT
Sid, that's all very nice in principle but you're forgetting something.
The European Union is run by an unelected Commission whom the public have no interaction with, no influence over, no way of hiring or firing.
Until the EU solves this problem, it cannot be considered a democracy.
It desperately needs reform and David Cameron drastically failed at reforming it, as did Gordon Brown, as did Tony Blair, as did John Major.
It's ok if you're a starry eyed European, but members we are not.
And there's a reason for that.
It needs reform and has been profoundly unwilling to.
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2023 7:02:46 GMT
As Winson Churchill said in his famous Zurich speech of 1946, after the end of the Second World War Yes indeed - wise words. "There is no reason why a regional organisation of Europe should in any way conflict with the world organisation of the United Nations. On the contrary, I believe that the larger synthesis can only survive if it is founded upon broad natural groupings. There is already a natural grouping in the Western Hemisphere. We British have our own Commonwealth of Nations. These do not weaken, on the contrary they strengthen, the world organisation. They are in fact its main support. And why should there not be a European group which could give a sense of enlarged patriotism and common citizenship to the distracted peoples of this mighty continent?"So a regional organisation on the continent would complement our organisation that already exists.. Well done for pointing that out. |
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Post by oracle75 on May 27, 2023 9:03:16 GMT
Is the lack of innovation in the EU the reason the UK is begging and willing to pay large sums to rejoin Horizon, or why the EU now has a huge network of comms satellites around the world?
"Copernicus is the European Union's Earth Observation Programme. It is a leading provider of Earth observation data, which is used for services providers, public authorities and other international organisations to improve the quality of life for the European citizens. The gathered EO data benefit emergency response, global food security, border control and homeland security by contributing to maritime surveillance."
I would call those quite innovative.
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Post by Vinny on May 27, 2023 9:57:28 GMT
I'll take the Commonwealth over the EU any day.
The Commonwealth are our friends.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on May 27, 2023 10:02:55 GMT
The EU needs to foster tech — not just regulate iteuobserver.com/opinion/157069The EU has tried to jostle itself onto the world-stage alongside other major economies - while the US was generally considered the innovator and China the copy & paste-r the EU believed it could squeeze its way into the scene as a global regulator. Vying to regulate countries from afar when it tried to sign its version of FTA with other nations. This is why Mercusor have long been resistant to the EU's imperial regulatory demands in trade agreements. All this is fine I say, let the EU regulate the life out of trade and business to manage their declinist approach towards growth and prosperity. The only issue I have is, why are the UK still not only following that protectionist and risk-averse model but appear to be going beyond the EU's straightjacket where regulation is concerned. When we have the chairman of Microsoft the other week clearly trying to play the UK off its Brexit freedom by claiming the EU "is a better place to do business than the UK". www.thenational.scot/news/23486003.eu-better-place-business-uk-says-microsoft-boss/Have our civil servants and regulators been conditioned that much over 4 decades of onerous regulation & rule by the EU that they themselves now feel the urge to stymie innovation as the safest bet for the economy, and with a Brucie bonus added to that they will keep Brussels happy? You link is ignorant. China is leading in some areas of AI, the rest is mainly the US. You can't copy and past what has not been invented. It's also hypocrisy coming from a nation that is much inferior when it comes to inventing stuff. I mean what was the last major invention by a Brit. |
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2023 10:21:27 GMT
Sid, that's all very nice in principle but you're forgetting something. The European Union is run by an unelected Commission whom the public have no interaction with, no influence over, no way of hiring or firing. Until the EU solves this problem, it cannot be considered a democracy. It desperately needs reform and David Cameron drastically failed at reforming it, as did Gordon Brown, as did Tony Blair, as did John Major. It's ok if you're a starry eyed European, but members we are not. And there's a reason for that. It needs reform and has been profoundly unwilling to. Another false argument We in this country have an hereditary head of state, we have an unelected upper house, and a Prime Minister that only the people of North Yorkshire elected. Commissioners may be unelected directly by the people of Europe, but they are appointed by people who were elected, a common practice in many democracies, including ours. I would argue that the EU is more democratic, and more accountable than our democracy |
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Post by Vinny on May 27, 2023 10:27:50 GMT
False equivalence, the upper house scrutinise legislation they do not initiate legislation.
The EU does the reverse, MEPs scrutinise legislation they do not initiate it.
As the public do not get to vote for a manifesto, there is a severe democratic deficit in the EU.
And when treaty changes happen, there aren't multi choice proposals for the public to vote yes or no to.
We in the UK vote for parties to govern.
The lack of a directly elected PM is rather inconsequential. If Rishi Sunak were to die tomorrow (god forbid) the Tories would still have an elected mandate until next year's election.
Someone else would replace him.
The Tories were elected on the basis of manifesto, not personality.
And our King doesn't make any policies at all.
He's a figurehead, not a leader.
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Post by oracle75 on May 27, 2023 10:37:57 GMT
I'll take the Commonwealth over the EU any day. The Commonwealth are our friends. Is that why many of them included Australia want to leave? Mind you, pay them enough money and they will stay. |
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Post by Pacifico on May 27, 2023 10:55:15 GMT
I'll take the Commonwealth over the EU any day. The Commonwealth are our friends. The thing about the Commonwealth compared to the EU is that the Commonwealth countries have never refused to help us when we were at war. History shows we simply cannot rely on individual EU countries. |
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Post by bancroft on May 27, 2023 11:03:04 GMT
Sid, that's all very nice in principle but you're forgetting something. The European Union is run by an unelected Commission whom the public have no interaction with, no influence over, no way of hiring or firing. Until the EU solves this problem, it cannot be considered a democracy. It desperately needs reform and David Cameron drastically failed at reforming it, as did Gordon Brown, as did Tony Blair, as did John Major. It's ok if you're a starry eyed European, but members we are not. And there's a reason for that. It needs reform and has been profoundly unwilling to. Another false argument We in this country have an hereditary head of state, we have an unelected upper house, and a Prime Minister that only the people of North Yorkshire elected. Commissioners may be unelected directly by the people of Europe, but they are appointed by people who were elected, a common practice in many democracies, including ours. I would argue that the EU is more democratic, and more accountable than our democracy The monarchy is ceremonial, the H of L is advisory and can delay legislation with recommendations though not stop it. I think that is more about safeguards and normally revolves around wording legislation better. |
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Post by Vinny on May 27, 2023 11:44:55 GMT
Bancroft is right.
The use of the Parliaments act is available to the elected House of Commons to overrule Lords decisions.
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