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Post by Orac on Mar 26, 2023 9:43:20 GMT
No. You miss my point entirely. The police force is there only to tackle crime. The public has only agreed to pay money for the police to do that. Using those resources to do something else instead is therefore corruption. Using public money, earmarked to deal with crime, to instead promote your political positions, is corruption. Split the force in two and put the gung ho Dirty Harry gun carrying cops in a separate corps and under strict control… I don't think this has much to do with firearms. The police are there to deal with crime - they should never allow themselves to be seen as adjacent / sympathetic to political movements, to institutionally hold political positions or have politically controversial aims. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 10:55:09 GMT
So what are these political positions the police are being forced to take. ie ' wokeness' / demographic targets/ painting political symbols on police cars etc. See my analogyTBH the amount of money spent on putting rainbows on police cars is negligible as they have vinyl livery anyway. As for inclusion. I think it is critical the police who have extensive powers are seen as inclusive. They depend heavily upon public trust, unless you want to mimic Russia or North Korea. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 26, 2023 11:34:02 GMT
It may well be the case that the population of London - and probably other major conurbations too - is now so diverse and exotic that former certainties concerning the public's perception of the role of the police no longer apply.
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Post by Handyman on Mar 26, 2023 11:48:41 GMT
Split the force in two and put the gung ho Dirty Harry gun carrying cops in a separate corps and under strict control… I don't think this has much to do with firearms. The police are there to deal with crime - they should never allow themselves to be seen as adjacent / sympathetic to political movements, to institutionally hold political positions or have politically controversial aims. All Police Officers in England and Wales roughly 120,000 of them when they join the Police all swear allegiance to the reining Monarch , their brief is quite simple they swear to keep the Monarchs peace , protect life and property and enforce the Laws of the land. But as already stated they are now having to take up the slack that other organisations cannot deal with, such as Mental illness across England and Wales there was and probably still are about 50 Psychiatric Nurses stationed in Police Custody Suites, due to the wide use of illegal substances across the UK local GP's are constantly being called into Police Station 24/7 to certify if a drug user is fit to be detained and interviewed. Many of the calls the Police get 24/7 are very often are not within their remit but they are expected to respond and complained about if they don't , the country is going to the dogs, lack of parental guidance little or discipline at home and in our schools , we even have Police Officers stationed in some schools because of violence in the classrooms, weapons and drugs. As for Gung Ho Firearms Officers what a load of sheer ill informed nonsense by Patman we don't have enough of them, across England and Wales there are only 6,192 of them as of last year, last year they responded to 18,000 incidents where weapons and firearms were evident or alleged, they opened fire on four occasions. The gangs in London, Birmingham, Liverpool kill or injure more people in one week, fighting over silly insults, or the drugs trade and prostitution Turf Wars, there are more knives and firearms on our street every day of the week 24/7. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 26, 2023 11:54:26 GMT
TBH the amount of money spent on putting rainbows on police cars is negligible as they have vinyl livery anyway. The money spent isn't the entire issue. If you look back in the conversation you can see your question was about political positions, not finances. I would have thought it would be obvious to anyone who valued democracy, why the police should not be seen as affiliated with political positions. However, this is not the first time I have noted that, though you describe yourself as some sort of 'centrist liberal', a large number of your actual stated political positions seem to come straight out of some authoritarian / Stalinist handbook As for inclusion. I think it is critical the police who have extensive powers are seen as inclusive. They depend heavily upon public trust, unless you want to mimic Russia or North Korea. I see nothing wrong with the police advertising their roles in a way that appeals to ethnic minorities in response to such a wish. However, if the reaction to this wish goes beyond this, then you start almost necessarily sacrificing the core role of the police to support social theories - ie corruption. The central role the police (dealing with crime) should be the police's highest priority, the notion that the police should have your preferred racial makeup should be so far down the list it barely gets a look in. More broadly, this issue seems to be related to the apparent fact that people with certain political opinions have a lot of trouble distinguishing between function and aesthetic and juggling those priorities in an adult way. What ideally needs to happen is that police forces in the areas these people live need to be destroyed or rendered incapable, so they can properly see the consequences of the kind of compromises they are forcing on others. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 11:56:06 GMT
It may well be the case that the population of London - and probably other major conurbations too - is now so diverse and exotic that former certainties concerning the public's perception of the role of the police no longer apply. I'd agree. I was against multiculturalism for various reasons, but here we are now and we need to adjust to the current reality. |
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Post by jonksy on Mar 26, 2023 11:57:46 GMT
I don't think this has much to do with firearms. The police are there to deal with crime - they should never allow themselves to be seen as adjacent / sympathetic to political movements, to institutionally hold political positions or have politically controversial aims. All Police Officers in England and Wales roughly 120,000 of them when they join the Police all swear allegiance to the reining Monarch , their brief is quite simple they swear to keep the Monarchs peace , protect life and property and enforce the Laws of the land. But as already stated they are now having to take up the slack that other organisations cannot deal with, such as Mental illness across England and Wales there was and probably still are about 50 Psychiatric Nurses stationed in Police Custody Suites, due to the wide use of illegal substances across the UK local GP's are constantly being called into Police Station 24/7 to certify if a drug user is fit to be detained and interviewed. Many of the calls the Police get 24/7 are very often are not within their remit but they are expected to respond and complained about if they don't , the country is going to the dogs, lack of parental guidance little or discipline at home and in your schools , we even have Police Officers stationed in some schools because of violence in the classrooms, weapons and drugs. As for Gung Ho Firearms Officers what a load of sheer ill informed nonsense by Patman we don't have enough of them, across England and Wales there are only 6,192 of them as of last year, last year they responded to 18,000 incidents where weapons and firearms were evident or alleged, they opened fire on four occasions. The gangs in London, Birmingham, Liverpool kill or injure more people in one week, fighting over silly insults, or the drugs trade and prostitution Turf Wars, there are more knives and firearms on our street every day of the week 24/7. I see the usual race card is being dealt again. It may be more objective if she asked the reason why super drug decided to employ their own security in Chichester..
Ex-Downing Street aide whose son was restrained while 'shopping for shampoo' in Superdrug says she finds it 'impossible to believe' that 'race had nothing to do with it'
Video shows two rangers pinning a 15-year-old black boy to ground in Sussex
The boy's mother, who is white, said she doubts it would have happened to her
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 12:00:31 GMT
I don't think this has much to do with firearms. The police are there to deal with crime - they should never allow themselves to be seen as adjacent / sympathetic to political movements, to institutionally hold political positions or have politically controversial aims. All Police Officers in England and Wales roughly 120,000 of them when they join the Police all swear allegiance to the reining Monarch , their brief is quite simple they swear to keep the Monarchs peace , protect life and property and enforce the Laws of the land. But as already stated they are now having to take up the slack that other organisations cannot deal with, such as Mental illness across England and Wales there was and probably still are about 50 Psychiatric Nurses stationed in Police Custody Suites, due to the wide use of illegal substances across the UK local GP's are constantly being called into Police Station 24/7 to certify if a drug user is fit to be detained and interviewed. Many of the calls the Police get 24/7 are very often are not within their remit but they are expected to respond and complained about if they don't , the country is going to the dogs, lack of parental guidance little or discipline at home and in your schools , we even have Police Officers stationed in some schools because of violence in the classrooms, weapons and drugs. As for Gung Ho Firearms Officers what a load of sheer ill informed nonsense by Patman we don't have enough of them, across England and Wales there are only 6,192 of them as of last year, last year they responded to 18,000 incidents where weapons and firearms were evident or alleged, they opened fire on four occasions. The gangs in London, Birmingham, Liverpool kill or injure more people in one week, fighting over silly insults, or the drugs trade and prostitution Turf Wars, there are more knives and firearms on our street every day of the week 24/7. Surely we are becoming a new second world country. Brexit, Covid and Putin have combined to kill our economy and our government is not willing to increase tax to fill the gaping holes. The holes in our roads are real but also symbolic of the holes in our society. So we are to live another cycle of the rich hanging onto their wealth until the society they live in becomes so awful they realise their money can't protect them from it. And so endeth the new Victorian era. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 26, 2023 12:03:44 GMT
It may well be the case that the population of London - and probably other major conurbations too - is now so diverse and exotic that former certainties concerning the public's perception of the role of the police no longer apply. Sure - but the whole notion underlying immigration was that people would come to UK to live a UK way of life. It was never an advertised notion that we would recreate (say) an African way of life with attendant (say) African-style social institutions around their presence |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 26, 2023 12:23:22 GMT
Just something else for the native population in general to look forward to as the demographic transformation runs its inexorable course.
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 12:36:30 GMT
As for inclusion. I think it is critical the police who have extensive powers are seen as inclusive. They depend heavily upon public trust, unless you want to mimic Russia or North Korea. But for your endless desire to make everything about race, to an extent I agree here. In an ideal world the local white bobby should be a pleasing site to all residents of whatever colour or ethnicity. However so much damage has been done to that perception by the well documented and overt examples of racism among the met that it is unrecoverable in that form. So we need to re-build that trust and one way of doing that is to put ethnic minorities into the police in greater numbers. Not destroyed, replaced. Other than that I have no idea what this paragraph means. |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 12:39:45 GMT
It may well be the case that the population of London - and probably other major conurbations too - is now so diverse and exotic that former certainties concerning the public's perception of the role of the police no longer apply. Sure - but the whole notion underlying immigration was that people would come to UK to live a UK way of life. It was never an advertised notion that we would recreate (say) an African way of life with attendant (say) African-style social institutions around their presence Nor was it ever the intent, nor has it happened. Multiculturalism has many issues, but one of them is not that we have to adapt to being African (Whatever African is, seeing as Africa has 54 ways of life) |
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Post by Orac on Mar 26, 2023 12:57:00 GMT
In an ideal world the local white bobby should be a pleasing site to all residents of whatever colour or ethnicity. However so much damage has been done to that perception by the well documented and overt examples of racism among the ; that it is unrecoverable in that form. So we need to re-build that trust and one way of doing that is to put ethnic minorities into the police in greater numbers. This is becoming a bit circular. You are now using your political beliefs to justify the police advertising and promoting your political beliefs. My point is that the police should not be doing this. Not destroyed, replaced. Other than that I have no idea what this paragraph means I was being colloquial - Replaced with something far less functional = destroyed |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 26, 2023 13:12:35 GMT
In an ideal world the local white bobby should be a pleasing site to all residents of whatever colour or ethnicity. However so much damage has been done to that perception by the well documented and overt examples of racism among the ; that it is unrecoverable in that form. So we need to re-build that trust and one way of doing that is to put ethnic minorities into the police in greater numbers. This is becoming a bit circular. You are now using your political beliefs to justify the police advertising and promoting your political beliefs. My point is that the police should not be doing this. Not destroyed, replaced. Other than that I have no idea what this paragraph means I was being colloquial - Replaced with something far less functional = destroyed I'm struggling to think of something less functional than the Met. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 26, 2023 13:12:55 GMT
Sure - but the whole notion underlying immigration was that people would come to UK to live a UK way of life. It was never an advertised notion that we would recreate (say) an African way of life with attendant (say) African-style social institutions around their presence Nor was it ever the intent, nor has it happened. Multiculturalism has many issues, but one of them is not that we have to adapt to being African (Whatever African is, seeing as Africa has 54 ways of life) You claim that our social institutions need to be uprooted, replaced and revalued in response to a change you regularly also trivialise as inconsequential - ie nothing more than the presence of 'differently coloured people' Have you considered the possibility that many people who objected to immigration might have wanted the social institutions that you now claim need to be eradicated / replaced? - that they correctly predicted that your next move would be to take an axe to the institutions they valued? Were these people wrong or right? |
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