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Post by oracle75 on Mar 16, 2023 9:27:18 GMT
No you didnt. I did. I carefully explained that a smaller workforce can be more productive than a large one so therefore the availability of workers does not necessarily push wages up or down.
However it is good to see you are thinking further outside the box. If you have a large availability of workers then you do not have a smaller workforce. Poland had a smaller workforce, and hence better productivity because its available workforce had shrunk and businesses needed to invest to expand as simply taking on more staff was an option no longer available. You should stop thinking about boxes and more about economic basics. Oh stop it. The size of the workforce is not to be confused with its variety or productivity. You can have a country overfull of doctors and rapidly go bankrupt. Poles used FOM to make more money in euros which they spent in Poland where prices and property were cheaper. The FOM allowed Polish people to increase their standard of living...ie FOM caused the Polish economy to grow because more people had more money to spend. The growth was noted by international investors who put money into developing industries and outlets for people with more money. Eventually Poles dont have to go abroad to find work. This is a fundamental principle of the EU from the beginning. If you open the jobs market to everyone then you raise opportunity for everyone. You make growth far easier. The onlt issue then is how wach country operates its economic potential. The EU creates the opportunities but each member shapes them as they vote and prefer. Wages havent fallen in the EU and the UK ia still on the bottom of rates of growth. Profits havent surged in the EU anymore than research, development and opportunity have contributed to those places which have concentrated on developing new technology and selling it for investment in the relative economy. Your workers equals wages is so far out of date. It belongs to the industrial revolution when people, banks, insurance companies and stock markets didnt exist. Today they are what decides the economies of nations. Like Poland, if there are too many coal miners they dont have to accept low wages. They can find work in places where coal miners are needed. This is so fundamental. People have been going abroad to look for work for generations. Today we just call it FOM. Competition. Capitalism. Global trading. Today we dont lock out non nationals so we can keep wages high. The minute you trade with a country where wages are lower your prices cant compete. You go bust. |
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Post by Vinny on Mar 16, 2023 10:24:17 GMT
Glad to be out.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 16, 2023 11:43:00 GMT
Today we dont lock out non nationals so we can keep wages high. Well that at least is true - so allowing mass immigration to keep wages low benefits who exactly? |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 16, 2023 13:05:15 GMT
Today we dont lock out non nationals so we can keep wages high. Well that at least is true - so allowing mass immigration to keep wages low benefits who exactly? You get the productivity, investment and growth. They get the wages. |
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Post by Steve on Mar 16, 2023 13:18:19 GMT
Lower wages
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 16, 2023 13:32:35 GMT
Lower than what?
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Post by Steve on Mar 16, 2023 17:15:53 GMT
They would have been in the UK without FoM |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 16, 2023 17:49:12 GMT
And how do you know what that would be?
There is a minimum wage you know. That would be the lowest wage. And pulling carrots never got you more than the lowest permissable wage.
You cannot say migrants pulled wages down by imagining what wages might have been if...
Wages have hardly gone up for such work because farmers have contracts to provide produce at a certain price. Now you might not care if farmers go out of business, but putting up wages while paying inflated prices for transport and energy will certainly do it.
So since migrants have been chased out of town, crops have rotted because there arent enough Brits to deal with them.
Nor should they if they dont want to. We have worked hard to avoid compulsory labour of the era of WW2.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 16, 2023 18:04:36 GMT
Well that at least is true - so allowing mass immigration to keep wages low benefits who exactly? You get the productivity, investment and growth. They get the wages. I can see how it helps the migrant worker - I'm struggling to see what British workers get out of it. Apart from lower pay of course. |
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Post by Steve on Mar 16, 2023 19:30:33 GMT
And how do you know what that would be? There is a minimum wage you know. That would be the lowest wage. And pulling carrots never got you more than the lowest permissable wage. You cannot say migrants pulled wages down by imagining what wages might have been if... Wages have hardly gone up for such work because farmers have contracts to provide produce at a certain price. Now you might not care if farmers go out of business, but putting up wages while paying inflated prices for transport and energy will certainly do it. So since migrants have been chased out of town, crops have rotted because there arent enough Brits to deal with them. Nor should they if they dont want to. We have worked hard to avoid compulsory labour of the era of WW2. And you think that FoM migrants only did minimum wage crop picking? After all the discussion above about for example truck driving? bizarre |
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Post by oracle75 on Mar 16, 2023 20:24:12 GMT
Which freelance or unionised truck drivers are you talking about?
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Post by zanygame on Mar 16, 2023 20:31:56 GMT
I said nothing of the sort. I said you cannot force up wages simply by cutting the work force. How long do you think that can last. Have you many other examples? |
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Post by zanygame on Mar 16, 2023 20:35:21 GMT
No I'm not all over the place, you are comparing apples and oranges. Poland was a low paid country given the opportunity to join the EU. This was a massive boost to their economy and it accelerated rapidly. We were already in and prospering. But Poland joining the EU gave them the benefits I described above. It gave them the ability to shed a large slice of their population through FOM, people who were a drag on their economy but could spread across EU territory, become richer and send a lot of money back to their homeland to boost their economy. Precisely. And the UK took the majority because even among the less skilled English is the second language |
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Post by Toreador on Mar 16, 2023 21:39:41 GMT
And how do you know what that would be? There is a minimum wage you know. That would be the lowest wage. And pulling carrots never got you more than the lowest permissable wage.You cannot say migrants pulled wages down by imagining what wages might have been if... Wages have hardly gone up for such work because farmers have contracts to provide produce at a certain price. Now you might not care if farmers go out of business, but putting up wages while paying inflated prices for transport and energy will certainly do it. So since migrants have been chased out of town, crops have rotted because there arent enough Brits to deal with them. Nor should they if they dont want to. We have worked hard to avoid compulsory labour of the era of WW2. You don't know howe it works, do you, Oracle? You haven't a clue how it works, have you, Oracle? You don't know what goes on in the immigrant labour market do you, Oracle? it isn't what you think. |
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Post by Toreador on Mar 16, 2023 21:50:42 GMT
It gave them the ability to shed a large slice of their population through FOM, people who were a drag on their economy but could spread across EU territory, become richer and send a lot of money back to their homeland to boost their economy. Precisely. And the UK took the majority because even among the less skilled English is the second language Did we take the majority or did we take more than other EU nations. The French were complaining about East Europeans when I was there, they had thousands. Germany had thousands and both had more Romas than we had. I don't know the exact figure but Germany has millions of Turks, France has millions of people ftom their North African colonies, the EU is beseiged by people from beyond its borders, as is America. The Australians, Chinese and Japs have the right idea though you can probably name others. |
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