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Post by thescotsman on Mar 7, 2023 14:26:58 GMT
I imagine we're all in the same boat, in as much as we read and listen to those 'experts' whose opinions we consider to be most credible. For instance most of the information reaching my eyes and ears tells a different story from that which Vinny portrays. However, should it be the case that the Ukrainians execute a successful pincer movement in Bakhmut, and triumphantly hold the city while routing their opponents, and it becomes clear that the Russians military can't sustain the war, then I will acknowledge the greater accuracy of Vinny's sources, pay far greater attention to them, and jettison the sources that have misled me up to now. I'm sure we'd all prefer to get our news and analysis from the most accurate sources available. ...all you need to do is look at the maps and the time lines for troop movements - when you have a Russian (so called) axis of advance of what 2Km in roughly 5 months (I think it was about 5 months ago that Bakhmut became a hot topic) then that may tell you something is perhaps not quite right in the Russian military. Likewise the glacial progress of the attacks in Vugledar and so on. Don't get too bogged down in numbers of dead and banjaxed equipment, all you need to accept that its unfortunately large numbers on both sides. If your view was that Russia had a sophisticated, professional military machine equipped with modern weapons and tactically capable command and control then you need to rationalise that supposed force structure/capability against basically a militia army that started off with old ex-soviet equipment. As a starter for example, just have look at the youtube videos of the VDV at ZAPAD 21. The VDV (elements of 76th and 106th airborne divisions and 31st Airborne Brigade) were Russia's elite troops...the best of the best... Compare what you see on those official videos against what happened to them at Hostomel....these units essentially ceased to exist after 2 weeks of operations North of Kyiv. At the start of the "10 day special operation" the initial assault units were made up of the best trained elements of the 1st Guards Tank, 6th Combined Arms Army, 20th Combined Arms Army, 76th Guards Air Assault Division, 31st Guards Air Assault Brigade etc. these are all now either combat in-effective or re-constituted with conscripts and reservists. The 155th has been reportedly re-constituted 3 times..... All against a militia force.... I mean....that's got to tell you something hasn't it??
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Post by Vinny on Mar 7, 2023 14:45:30 GMT
Back in the Chechnya war an entire Spetznaz unit were wiped out, by irregular forces.
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Post by sword on Mar 7, 2023 16:41:32 GMT
Have the Ruskies actually taken Bakhmut yet? They've been trying since last summer, and wasting an extraordinary amount of ammunition on a place with no strategic value. Ukraine have absolutely bled the bastards dry. Putincunt is now having to get 60+ year old relics out of mothballs because Ukraine keep blowing up his tanks and he hasn't many modern ones left. No strategic value LOL!! its on the main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army in Donbass,and that criminal Zelensky has issued the Hitler order fight to the last man and bullet,one of his military commanders wants to withdraw while they still can and are still alive,Z should get his arse down there on the front line.
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Post by thescotsman on Mar 7, 2023 17:44:31 GMT
They've been trying since last summer, and wasting an extraordinary amount of ammunition on a place with no strategic value. Ukraine have absolutely bled the bastards dry. Putincunt is now having to get 60+ year old relics out of mothballs because Ukraine keep blowing up his tanks and he hasn't many modern ones left. No strategic value LOL!! its on the main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army in Donbass,and that criminal Zelensky has issued the Hitler order fight to the last man and bullet,one of his military commanders wants to withdraw while they still can and are still alive,Z should get his arse down there on the front line. …main logistics base…you mean Bakhmut?? It doesn’t exist as a town let alone a main “logistics hub”!! Just as a matter of interest, what made you say that….did someone tell you to type that or is it your own spin?? Where did you hear that?
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 7, 2023 18:42:03 GMT
They've been trying since last summer, and wasting an extraordinary amount of ammunition on a place with no strategic value. Ukraine have absolutely bled the bastards dry. Putincunt is now having to get 60+ year old relics out of mothballs because Ukraine keep blowing up his tanks and he hasn't many modern ones left. No strategic value LOL!! its on the main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army in Donbass,and that criminal Zelensky has issued the Hitler order fight to the last man and bullet,one of his military commanders wants to withdraw while they still can and are still alive,Z should get his arse down there on the front line. Who told you that?
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Post by sword on Mar 7, 2023 18:48:24 GMT
No strategic value LOL!! its on the main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army in Donbass,and that criminal Zelensky has issued the Hitler order fight to the last man and bullet,one of his military commanders wants to withdraw while they still can and are still alive,Z should get his arse down there on the front line. Who told you that? The fact that thousands of Ukrainian troops have died trying to save it,and its where they bring in supplies from further North,its not rocket science.
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Post by Vinny on Mar 7, 2023 19:16:22 GMT
Bakhmut is not strategically important. But, it's under attack and Putin has cost his military tens of thousands of men.
Ukraine isn't pulling out because Putin is throwing away his army trying to take it.
Ukraine would be fools not to take the opportunity to destroy as many invaders as possible. Because this way ultimately they'll get to liberate Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea, places which are strategically important.
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Post by sword on Mar 7, 2023 20:04:08 GMT
Bakhmut is not strategically important. But, it's under attack and Putin has cost his military tens of thousands of men. Ukraine isn't pulling out because Putin is throwing away his army trying to take it. Ukraine would be fools not to take the opportunity to destroy as many invaders as possible. Because this way ultimately they'll get to liberate Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea, places which are strategically important. As i say if its not important why lose thousands of troops and gear hanging on? its Stalingrad a situation, there will me many Ukrainian soldiers trapped in the City,best thing they can do is surrender and stay alive,they will be treated ok and one day return to their families.
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Post by thescotsman on Mar 7, 2023 20:56:43 GMT
Bakhmut is not strategically important. But, it's under attack and Putin has cost his military tens of thousands of men. Ukraine isn't pulling out because Putin is throwing away his army trying to take it. Ukraine would be fools not to take the opportunity to destroy as many invaders as possible. Because this way ultimately they'll get to liberate Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea, places which are strategically important. As i say if its not important why lose thousands of troops and gear hanging on? its Stalingrad a situation, there will me many Ukrainian soldiers trapped in the City,best thing they can do is surrender and stay alive,they will be treated ok and one day return to their families. ..you just said it was important! you said it was the "main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army in Donbass"!!?? Okay you made that up...no big deal...so let's move on.
...and despite your best wishes it's also not a "Stalingrad situation" there are lines prepared for a fighting withdrawal for those troops that presumably wish to evacuate...I'm just guessing but imagine that quite a few will not wish to leave and even less will want to surrender so you may have another Mariupol/Azovstal situation. Your Wagner/Rusich lads will be looking forward to that I assume?
Just as a matter of interest what numbers do you think Wagner/Russia have lost around Bakhmut in the last 5 months..or at least what numbers are you being told?
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Post by sword on Mar 7, 2023 21:27:27 GMT
I have no idea who lost what and how many and you don't,what we can say is its probably thousands,there is only one way out of that city and the Russians have it under their arti control,and you say look at the map,yes i have and once Bakhmut is out of the picture Kramatorsk and Slavyansk are next in line for liberation.
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Post by thescotsman on Mar 7, 2023 22:06:58 GMT
I have no idea who lost what and how many and you don't,what we can say is its probably thousands,there is only one way out of that city and the Russians have it under their arti control,and you say look at the map,yes i have and once Bakhmut is out of the picture Kramatorsk and Slavyansk are next in line for liberation. ..yay... ... you believe that if it brings you comfort
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 7, 2023 22:52:59 GMT
The fact that thousands of Ukrainian troops have died trying to save it,and its where they bring in supplies from further North,its not rocket science. I can see that Ukraine are willing to engage the Ruskies in a battle of attrition - even the head of Wagner admits that. What I am asking is who told you that Bakhmut was 'the main logistics hub for the Ukrainian army' - I think you have been sold a pup there mate..
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Post by Vinny on Mar 7, 2023 23:37:44 GMT
Attrition? It's absolute carnage. Invaders are committing suicide all over the place trying to take an unimportant target. The Ukrainians are utterly destroying them.
Once Putin's thugs have wiped themselves out trying to take Bakhmut the occupiers of Donetsk and Luhansk are completely fucked and the DPR mercs are doomed to death and those places will be liberated. And then the illegal occupiers of Crimea are fucked too, it too will be liberated.
When all of Ukraine is free, Putin's position will be untenable and he will be executed. And if he doesn't kill Yevgeny Prigozhin, Yevgeny Prigozhin will kill him.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 8, 2023 7:56:13 GMT
I see NATO are estimating a 5 to 1 casualty rate for the combatants in favour of Ukraine. Given the Russian tactics that seems reasonable and similar to mass attacks over open ground in previous conflicts.
That being said Russia has never cared about how many men they lose so I doubt that such a high casualty rate will have any impact on the Kremlin.
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Post by sword on Mar 8, 2023 9:54:24 GMT
Attrition? It's absolute carnage. Invaders are committing suicide all over the place trying to take an unimportant target. The Ukrainians are utterly destroying them. Once Putin's thugs have wiped themselves out trying to take Bakhmut the occupiers of Donetsk and Luhansk are completely fucked and the DPR mercs are doomed to death and those places will be liberated. And then the illegal occupiers of Crimea are fucked too, it too will be liberated. When all of Ukraine is free, Putin's position will be untenable and he will be executed. And if he doesn't kill Yevgeny Prigozhin, Yevgeny Prigozhin will kill him. You have gone down a vortex and arrived in an alternative universe,totally removed from reality.
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