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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 1, 2023 22:56:02 GMT
These jousting matches between Labour and Tory politicians and supporters often hit on the oft-cited claim that growth under Labour was better than under the Tories. This is true. In the first few years of the 2000s it was a long rally until we get to 2008, which is said to have been a global meltdown. This is true as well except for the Chinese economy. Now have a little think what it was prior to 2008 using the same logic. If the crash were global then so too was the pumping up of the market prior to 2008. Have a little more of a think and think where the City of London is located. Yes it is in this very same economy. So what did happen exactly? I have here a documentary on it and very good it is too. A fair bit of time has elapsed since 2008, so even though out of the news, we are in a position now to know far more.
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Post by steppenwolf on Feb 2, 2023 8:24:43 GMT
I haven't watched the Youtube but it's fairly easy for a government that believes in a big state to generate growth by simply making the state bigger - which is what Brown did for the whole time he was chancellor. Making the state bigger increases GDP of course, but the state doesn't figure directly in the productivity figures so it needs funding. And Brown funded it be letting borrowing rip and relaxing credit controls. Which of course led to the Credit Crunch. It was all predictable and was predicted.
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Post by Handyman on Feb 2, 2023 8:40:20 GMT
I haven't watched the Youtube but it's fairly easy for a government that believes in a big state to generate growth by simply making the state bigger - which is what Brown did for the whole time he was chancellor. Making the state bigger increases GDP of course, but the state doesn't figure directly in the productivity figures so it needs funding. And Brown funded it be letting borrowing rip and relaxing credit controls. Which of course led to the Credit Crunch. It was all predictable and was predicted. Yes which he was allegedly warned about and did nothing
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 3, 2023 11:35:12 GMT
I haven't watched the Youtube but it's fairly easy for a government that believes in a big state to generate growth by simply making the state bigger - which is what Brown did for the whole time he was chancellor. Making the state bigger increases GDP of course, but the state doesn't figure directly in the productivity figures so it needs funding. And Brown funded it be letting borrowing rip and relaxing credit controls. Which of course led to the Credit Crunch. It was all predictable and was predicted. Then you should watch the video because you don't know what happened.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 11:45:56 GMT
Funny isn't it really
We ( the UK ) are bottom of the league of industrialised countries with growth, we have seen persistently low growth ever since David Cameron first scraped to power with the help of the Lib Dems in 2010.
Everything is worse ... public services, the NHS, local public transport, standard of living, cost of living, inflation, poverty, you name it, its all now worse.
So what do the supporters of the Conservatives do ?
Answer: Instead of attempting to defend the very sorry state of our country, they instead attempt to explain why everything was much better when Labour were in power.
You really couldnt make it up LESS THAN TWO YEARS TO GO
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 3, 2023 12:17:47 GMT
Funny isn't it really We ( the UK ) are bottom of the league of industrialised countries with growth, we have seen persistently low growth ever since David Cameron first scraped to power with the help of the Lib Dems in 2010. Everything is worse ... public services, the NHS, local public transport, standard of living, cost of living, inflation, poverty, you name it, its all now worse. So what do the supporters of the Conservatives do ? Answer: Instead of attempting to defend the very sorry state of our country, they instead attempt to explain why everything was much better when Labour were in power. You really couldnt make it up LESS THAN TWO YEARS TO GO Labour are just as much in the dark as the Cons. It will get worse as well, because they do not get what is going on. You can tell by the News. Some things are just ignored completely.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Feb 3, 2023 12:21:40 GMT
FT
You wonder why our energy costs are 5x what they are in China.
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Post by dodgydave on Feb 3, 2023 16:33:32 GMT
Funny isn't it really We ( the UK ) are bottom of the league of industrialised countries with growth, we have seen persistently low growth ever since David Cameron first scraped to power with the help of the Lib Dems in 2010. Everything is worse ... public services, the NHS, local public transport, standard of living, cost of living, inflation, poverty, you name it, its all now worse. So what do the supporters of the Conservatives do ? Answer: Instead of attempting to defend the very sorry state of our country, they instead attempt to explain why everything was much better when Labour were in power. You really couldnt make it up LESS THAN TWO YEARS TO GO You point to problems, yet give zero context. Austerity was an EU policy, which ALL THE EU adopted... because Western Economies were wrecked by the financial crisis. If Labour had still been in power they would have been made to adopt austerity, no ifs or buts, because they were treaty bound to meet EU fiscal rules. The cost of living / inflation was caused by the COVID lockdowns that THE LEFT SUPPORTED (and actually argued for longer ones lol). Then add Ukraine and Brexit to the mix. So yeah, start your argument from here, not some bullshit that the last 12 years is all because of the Tories. Personally, I want a grown-up Social Democratic party, but we simply don't have one in the UK. Instead we have finger pointing, virtue signalers who offer no positive vision for the future. There is literally nobody worth voting for.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 3, 2023 17:24:24 GMT
Funny isn't it really We ( the UK ) are bottom of the league of industrialised countries with growth, we have seen persistently low growth ever since David Cameron first scraped to power with the help of the Lib Dems in 2010. Everything is worse ... public services, the NHS, local public transport, standard of living, cost of living, inflation, poverty, you name it, its all now worse. So what do the supporters of the Conservatives do ? Answer: Instead of attempting to defend the very sorry state of our country, they instead attempt to explain why everything was much better when Labour were in power. You really couldnt make it up LESS THAN TWO YEARS TO GO For those with (very) short memories...
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 17:27:41 GMT
Austerity was a policy adopted by many countries, but it was not an EU policy as you suggest, it was a choice made by the Conservative led coalition government, in particular David Cameron and George Osborne.
The only EU nations which must adopt similar fiscal rules are those nations which are part of the Eurozone.
The Labour leadership of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling were not alone in calling for a delay to cuts, followed by a more gradual cutting of budgets, their approach was backed by Nick Clegg and Vince Cable.
The Labour Chancellor stated that "an immediate, deep cutting of public spending would more than likely cut-off growth" and that growth should be allowed to get fully established before austerity measures were implemented.
After the election, the Lib Dems changed their minds, and went for the Tory policy of immediate and deep cuts
Growth which had been established after the recession, and under the Labour government, was then cut-off, growth fell ... the forecast of Brown and Darling was proven to be 100% correct.
Every forecast, every prediction ever made by George Osborne never came to fruition, his budget estimates were all blown way off course. He said at the despatch box that "unless we embark upon his measures, we would find ourselves in the same situation as Greece, and that we would lose our AAA Credit Rating ... three years later we lost our Triple A Credit Rating.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 3, 2023 17:53:03 GMT
Austerity was a policy adopted by many countries, but it was not an EU policy as you suggest, it was a choice made by the Conservative led coalition government, in particular David Cameron and George Osborne. The only EU nations which must adopt similar fiscal rules are those nations which are part of the Eurozone. No, that is incorrect. In 2008 the EU started its 'excessive deficit procedure' against the UK for allowing the deficit to rise above 3%. The procedure entails several steps, potentially culminating in sanctions, to encourage a Member State to get its budget deficit under control,
The UK had no option but to comply. eurostat
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2023 18:35:46 GMT
The Stability & Growth Pact ( Agreements ) under which EU members agree to remain within certain borrowing parameters, has been breeched by every member of the European Union.
When breached, the rules say that the government must take measures to fix the breach of the agreed rule
Economics is coplicated ... The best weapon against debt or deficit as a percentage of GDP is Growth, it IS NOT to cut spending, though this could help.
You may have 400 Million pounds deficit in a given year, if that figure remains the same, but you have steady or strong growth, then that figure of £400 Million actually falls as a percentage of GDP.
I still contend that Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown were 100% correct in what they said in 2009 / 2010 in the run-up to the general election.
Delay cuts, let the growth which had been established continue, let growth accelerate, then introduce moderate, steady cuts to budgets, without cutting off growth.
If Alistair Darling had been Chancellor of the Exchequer 2010 - 2015, our debt would have fallen much quicker, and growth would have been stronger.
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Post by Pacifico on Feb 3, 2023 22:20:47 GMT
The Stability & Growth Pact ( Agreements ) under which EU members agree to remain within certain borrowing parameters, has been breeched by every member of the European Union. When breached, the rules say that the government must take measures to fix the breach of the agreed rule Economics is coplicated ... The best weapon against debt or deficit as a percentage of GDP is Growth, it IS NOT to cut spending, though this could help. You may have 400 Million pounds deficit in a given year, if that figure remains the same, but you have steady or strong growth, then that figure of £400 Million actually falls as a percentage of GDP. I still contend that Alistair Darling and Gordon Brown were 100% correct in what they said in 2009 / 2010 in the run-up to the general election. Delay cuts, let the growth which had been established continue, let growth accelerate, then introduce moderate, steady cuts to budgets, without cutting off growth. If Alistair Darling had been Chancellor of the Exchequer 2010 - 2015, our debt would have fallen much quicker, and growth would have been stronger. Government spending does not produce growth - all it does is increase the debt. Alistair Darling was not proposing spending cuts of 25% simply because as a Scot he didn't like spending money - he did it to comply with the UK's obligations to the EU. As for your idea that cuts were not needed, I would just say 'what cuts' - public spending increased under the Tory/LibDem administration. All that changed was the rate of growth.
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Post by see2 on Feb 5, 2023 21:59:00 GMT
Funny isn't it really We ( the UK ) are bottom of the league of industrialised countries with growth, we have seen persistently low growth ever since David Cameron first scraped to power with the help of the Lib Dems in 2010. Everything is worse ... public services, the NHS, local public transport, standard of living, cost of living, inflation, poverty, you name it, its all now worse. So what do the supporters of the Conservatives do ? Answer: Instead of attempting to defend the very sorry state of our country, they instead attempt to explain why everything was much better when Labour were in power. You really couldnt make it up LESS THAN TWO YEARS TO GO For those with (very) short memories... You just can't resist pushing the insinuating dishonest anti-NL rightist propaganda. You do not understand that you are pure poison to the idea of decency and objectivity and are thereby helping to reinforce the circular political nonsense the UK continually gets stuck in. Judging by your posts you and your ilk are a major blockage to UK progress.
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Post by see2 on Feb 5, 2023 22:05:23 GMT
Austerity was a policy adopted by many countries, but it was not an EU policy as you suggest, it was a choice made by the Conservative led coalition government, in particular David Cameron and George Osborne. The only EU nations which must adopt similar fiscal rules are those nations which are part of the Eurozone. The Labour leadership of Gordon Brown and Alistair Darling were not alone in calling for a delay to cuts, followed by a more gradual cutting of budgets, their approach was backed by Nick Clegg and Vince Cable. The Labour Chancellor stated that "an immediate, deep cutting of public spending would more than likely cut-off growth" and that growth should be allowed to get fully established before austerity measures were implemented. After the election, the Lib Dems changed their minds, and went for the Tory policy of immediate and deep cuts Growth which had been established after the recession, and under the Labour government, was then cut-off, growth fell ... the forecast of Brown and Darling was proven to be 100% correct. Every forecast, every prediction ever made by George Osborne never came to fruition, his budget estimates were all blown way off course. He said at the despatch box that "unless we embark upon his measures, we would find ourselves in the same situation as Greece, and that we would lose our AAA Credit Rating ... three years later we lost our Triple A Credit Rating. IIRC the decision for austerity was taken at the G20, where both Brown and Obama argued for austerity and growth hand in hand with each other.
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