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Post by steppenwolf on Jan 15, 2023 8:16:03 GMT
I think the police can also stop anyone without stating any reason at all. I don't see the problem - provided that they're polite. But I think there's a broader point here in that we have a massive problem with crime and we do NOT have the numbers of police required to tackle it adequately. That means that policing HAS to be targeted. That's what Rowley is saying. If certain categories of people are more likely to be committing crime than it makes sense to stop these people. That's why blacks get stopped more often - it's because they commit more crime. If they don't like it I suggest they stop committing crime. And it's why the police hardly ever stop old ladies - because they don't tend to commit crime. That is called racial profiling and it causes more friction between the police and community than anything else. There has to be a stated reason for any stop and search and some kind of actual evidence that the law might have been broken. And not just that your brake light isn't working. No, it's not called "racial profiling" - it's called "profiling". And it's absurd to suggest that police don't do "profiling" already, based on a huge number of factors. They couldn't do their job if they didn't. And the problem is that it's getting more and more difficult for them to do their job because of the PC zealots who object when they stop more blacks than whites. Of course they do, because blacks commit far more crime. And they don't stop old ladies because they commit very little crime. The reason that the Manchester bomber was allowed to blow up the Arena was because both police and security guards were afraid to challenge him for fear of being labelled racist. So a young muslim mail carrying a heavy rucksack was allowed to loiter in the foyer of an Arianna Grande pop concert for hours selecting the best time to activate his bomb. You couldn't make it up. It's time for all kinds of profiling - what Rowley calls "targeting" because he's obviously scared of the reaction to the word profiling - to be legitimised. Of course the loony Left will react angrily, but the police need to be given the powers to do their job without fear of being disciplined for "racism".. |
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Post by Handyman on Jan 15, 2023 9:18:10 GMT
This is what it says in your link: " You can only be stopped and searched without reasonable grounds if it has been approved by a senior police officer. This can happen if it is suspected that:
serious violence could take place
you’re carrying a weapon or have used one
you’re in a specific location or area" So there are pretty broad grounds for stopping people "without reasonable grounds". I agree with you those orders can be given which they have been on a number occasions for a set period of time as I understand it in a specific area , but when they are not in force Police can and do carry out stop and searches, if they have reasonable grounds to do so which they have to record as they may have to justify their actions at a later date to a Court or if a complaint is made |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 15, 2023 10:03:22 GMT
You will never convince me that the two successful athletes who were stopped multiple times while driving an expensive car was not racial profiling.
The fact that non white people are stopped more often than white people is racial profiling.
And that the reason why more non white people are in jail isn't because white people get away with crimes more often because of racial profiling.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 15, 2023 15:39:24 GMT
You will never convince me that the two successful athletes who were stopped multiple times while driving an expensive car was not racial profiling. The fact that non white people are stopped more often than white people is racial profiling. And that the reason why more non white people are in jail isn't because white people get away with crimes more often because of racial profiling. You seem to be saying that there is no difference between white and black people either racially or culturally and that if some form of selection did not occur then all things would be equal and proportionality would be observed as fact. Is that right? |
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Post by steppenwolf on Jan 16, 2023 9:00:04 GMT
You will never convince me that the two successful athletes who were stopped multiple times while driving an expensive car was not racial profiling. The fact that non white people are stopped more often than white people is racial profiling. And that the reason why more non white people are in jail isn't because white people get away with crimes more often because of racial profiling. If you're trying to say that the only reason that blacks are over-represented in crime is because of racial profiling then I'd say that this does fly in the face of my experience. Black areas do have higher rates of crime than white areas - but of course that could be caused by various things like higher unemployment, broken families, illiteracy etc etc. and not by the fact that people are black. We do know that blacks are more likely to be stopped than whites. Govt figures say: - there were 7.5 stop and searches for every 1,000 white people, compared with 52.6 for every 1,000 black people. So they're about 7 times more likely to be stopped. What we also need is the number of those stopped who are subsequently convicted (by race) but I don't think the govt record those figures. If the conviction rate for people who are stopped is the same for whites or blacks then that would seem to show the police are unbiased. We do have the prison population though which gives some idea. So whites make up 85% of the UK population and represent 73% of the prison population, while blacks make up 3% of the population and 13% of the prison population. So it does look like blacks are over-represented in crime by about 5 times - which roughly justifies the stop and search figures by race. You could then start arguing that the justice system is prejudiced against blacks - as Lammy did. But the Lammy Report has been widely discredited for various obvious inaccuracies. The data seemed to show that the conviction rate for whites was higher than for blacks. Overall I'd say that the police and justice system seem reasonably fair. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 16, 2023 9:46:14 GMT
OK. But the question I would like someone to answer is, are there more black people in prison because they are more closely scrutinised...do white criminals get away with crimes because the concentration is on black people.
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Post by Toreador on Jan 16, 2023 10:09:57 GMT
OK. But the question I would like someone to answer is, are there more black people in prison because they are more closely scrutinised...do white criminals get away with crimes because the concentration is on black people. Or are there more black people in proison because they break the laws most? |
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Post by Handyman on Jan 16, 2023 10:18:12 GMT
According to Government Figures in relation to Stop and Searches carried out by Police last year 359,332 white people were stopped and searched , 98.010 black people were stopped and searched www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/crime-justice-and... Police have always gathered intelligence on what is happening in their area, what they see when on Patrol , what they hear from members of the public, paid informants, suspects they have arrested who will inform on others, or simply to take out rivals which happens quite often with drug dealers. In this day and age all the information they gather 24/7 is put into their Intelligence database, hot spots for burglaries, anti social behaviour, drug dealing , in order to pay greater attention to those areas, they have surveillance teams who will try and identify who is dealing in drugs and more importantly where and when, their main aim is to try and find out if they can who is supplying the street pushers. As for the black athlete who was stopped and searched if I recall correctly not because of a flash car , but because it was an area where drug pushers were known to operate on a regular basis a Police Intelligence operation to get drug pushers off the street and behind bars where they belong , no matter what ruddy colour they are. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 16, 2023 10:36:17 GMT
OK. But the question I would like someone to answer is, are there more black people in prison because they are more closely scrutinised...do white criminals get away with crimes because the concentration is on black people. Wrong question. Lammy and co require you to be re-educated to understand that too many black people are in prison because they are given harsher sentences. I’m sure you will recall the decision by a court to give a bunch of Somali women suspended sentences because they were unaccustomed to drink, being Moslems. I’m also sure our local Islamist apologists will pretty soon find THIS article on that case fullfact.org/news/did-group-muslim-women-escape-jail-attack-because-they-were-not-used-alcohol/I find a couple of things in the fullfact analysis interesting First, the organisation asked the now MoJ for a comment and we’re told THERE WAS NO TRANSCRIPT of what was an ORAL judgement Then the MOJ decided they agreed with a mose Islam friendly version of the story put up by a different newspaper Well they would, wouldn’t they. Strange there’s no mention by fullfact of the aggravating circumstances. But this is what we must expect. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 16, 2023 10:45:31 GMT
OK. But the question I would like someone to answer is, are there more black people in prison because they are more closely scrutinised...do white criminals get away with crimes because the concentration is on black people. Wrong question. Lammy and co require you to be re-educated to understand that too many black people are in prison because they are given harsher sentences. To be given a sentence you have to have been arrested. That requires police in the first instance. So my question stands. |
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Post by oracle75 on Jan 16, 2023 10:50:47 GMT
Wrong question. Lammy and co require you to be re-educated to understand that too many black people are in prison because they are given harsher sentences. To be given a sentence you have to have been arrested. That requires police in the first instance. So my question stands. And I cannot pass comment on many based on one selected instance without knowing all the facts objectively. I am not even sure your anecdote applies. I am merely asking whether, due to staffing shortages etc, if the police don't catch more black people because they aren't looking as hard at white people. I don't know. And it would be an interesting thing to look at. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 16, 2023 11:21:03 GMT
That’s why no little old ladies are prosecuted for bank robbery. Because the police don’t look for little old ladies who are bank robbers.
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Post by wapentake on Jan 16, 2023 13:29:58 GMT
You cannot escape the fact that whatever the figures of crime attributed to any section of society won’t stop the law abiding subjected to stop and search eventually feeling aggrieved,stopped maybe once or twice but if it happens multiple times they are bound to feel being treated unfairly.
I remember a good few years ago there were demonstrations around the export of live animals (can’t remember if it was through Dover or another port) anyway the police were forceful in their handling of the protestors, the reaction back was “You can’t treat us like this we’re middle class law abiding citizens” the police commanders reply was pretty much “you’re breaking the law and have been treated accordingly,the same happened with the met and the countryside alliance demos iirc.
You can’t blame the law abiding feeling aggrieved and you can’t really blame the cops trying to keep a lid on lawlessness.
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Post by sandypine on Jan 16, 2023 13:45:15 GMT
Wrong question. Lammy and co require you to be re-educated to understand that too many black people are in prison because they are given harsher sentences. To be given a sentence you have to have been arrested. That requires police in the first instance. So my question stands. The answer is who knows? WE do know however that no matter how caused there is a general attitude difference as regards the interaction of police and black people. The case of Trevor Sinclair highlights this where the police were polite and respectful but Sinclair could not get past being racially abusive because he was suspected of a crime. The same goes for Dwayne Brookes in the Lawrence case where he was antagonistic and rude to the first responders who had to assess from cold a crime scene. The police are only human as well. |
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Post by Handyman on Jan 16, 2023 14:09:04 GMT
That’s why no little old ladies are prosecuted for bank robbery. Because the police don’t look for little old ladies who are bank robbers.  Like it |
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